TAUGHT
TAUGHT explores research-based solutions to the educator burnout crisis—because you can’t self-care your way out of systemic dysfunction.
This season, we’re shifting the focus from stories to strategies—and rethinking what workplace wellness in education really means.
Through compelling conversations with experts in education, mental health, and organizational leadership, each episode unpacks the root causes of burnout and offers actionable strategies to help transform schools into healthier, safer, and more sustainable places to work.
TAUGHT
Finding Your Educator Style: The Systemic Change We All Need
Dive into the compelling world of education where passion meets challenge. Join us as we address the pressing issue of teacher burnout from a unique perspective. This episode features Rob Macleod, a seasoned educator who brings with him a wealth of experience and insight into the dynamics of teaching. We explore how misalignments between personal teaching styles and school cultures can lead many educators to feel disillusioned and burnt out.
Listen in as Rob articulates his journey from a passionate teacher to feeling overwhelmed and disengaged. Through engaging conversations, we break down the three primary teaching roles—Expert, Coach, Counselor—illuminating how understanding one’s style can help educators navigate their environments more effectively. This insightful dialogue underscores the importance of creating supportive school cultures, recognizing the systemic challenges we face, and advocating for meaningful change.
Whether you're an educator seeking to reignite your passion or simply curious about the factors contributing to teacher burnout, this episode is your go-to resource for understanding the heart of education today. Join our community as we rally against burnout and strive toward a future where teaching is fulfilled with passion. Don't forget to subscribe, share our message, and leave a review!
Contact Rob!
https://www.instagram.com/reinventing_education_podcast/
Instagram: @reinventing_education_podcast
https://www.youtube.com/@reinventingeducation4593
Access the Episode Transcript on the TAUGHT website.
Want to Be a Guest on Taught?
We're always looking to amplify fresh voices and real solutions. Email amy@amyschambergwellness.com with your name, role in education or workforce health, and a brief description of your perspective or experience.
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Explore Further:
- Learn more about the Total Worker Health® approach from NIOSH
- Discover Amy’s wellness workshops, coaching, and consulting at amyschamberg.com
- Check out the book that started it all! Taught: The Very Private Journal of One Bad Teacher by Melissa Lafort — Available on Amazon
I was in a school that was not a match for where I was, for what I wanted to be doing and what meaningful contribution meant. And the work that I'm sure we'll get into a little bit later came from this inquiry of how on earth could I go from this feeling like a dream being in teaching to a nightmare, and how can I go from feeling like all of the time and effort I'm putting in is totally worth it to the opposite. Not only you know I was still putting in the same time and effort and same work, but not only was it not fulfilling, I was working in ways that I professionally and personally disagreed with and had to uphold practices that I was not in alignment. You know some beliefs around student learning that you know were not a match for me.
Speaker 2:A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator. It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout. Okay, actually it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration. But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching. I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators. This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education. Why are so many teachers burnout? Why are so many like me leaving the field? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching. I'm Melissa LaFleur. Welcome to Taught, the podcast. I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated. Hey everybody, today's podcast guest is here to tell us how we can reinvent education and he believes so strongly in this reinvention that he has dedicated a YouTube channel and a lot of time and energy into getting the word out about what this reinvention looks like lot of time and energy into getting the word out about what this reinvention looks like. After looking at what he's putting out there, I have to say that maybe he has cracked the code for burnout in education.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to introduce Rob McLeod. Rob has been in education for several years and he has taught everything from kindergarten through 12th grade. He's also taught in a few different countries and over his time as an educator, rob noticed some patterns in leadership and educational philosophies. Now Rob has taken these observations and put them into an interesting way of looking at the classroom and the administrators that are in charge of these classrooms. Today, rob's going to tell us how knowing what your style of teaching or being a leader can do to help you find your perfect place in the educational world and use your style to your advantage. According to Rob, there are three types of teachers and three types of leaders, and knowing which one you are can be the game changer that you've been looking for to pull you out of burnout and back to that place of passion for a career that you love in education. I wish you had been there for me, rob. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Speaker 1:It's my pleasure to be here and yeah, you just saying you wish I had been there. I've realized that the message and the ideas that I'm sharing fulfill a role that I think is missing in an education system, which is who do you turn to when you are getting burnt out, when you're losing your passion, when you feel you're not contributing meaningfully. So, although that's a little like somber to hear that you wish I had been there, I think it points to the fact that this is something that's needed and necessary.
Speaker 2:It's definitely needed and I think you know one of the things that comes along with burnout is shame, because you feel like you're the only one going through it and you feel like what's wrong with me and you try all these different things. I've joked about this, but it's true On previous episodes. You know you turn to snacking. That was my thing. It's like if I eat enough yummy food, this will go away. Or binge watching Netflix. Or you know you keep thinking that if you could get enough rest, if you could get all these things, the burnout will go away.
Speaker 2:But we don't always have resources that we can turn to. And if I could go back in time, resources that we can turn to, and if I could go back in time and I had your book, which I know is in the revision process right now but will be coming out again If I had had that information, it would have been something that I could have tried before I decided I was done teaching. But why don't you take a minute and just tell us about yourself and, kind of you know what your biographical information is here?
Speaker 1:You know I think you touched on some of the main points there. So I've been in schools for about 16 years now, started as a teacher in Canada at a time when it was really difficult to be a new teacher. Very few jobs, lots. We were kind of in this double cohort here of like twice as many graduates. Due to a change in the system, people who had jobs were really holding on to them, so it was difficult to be a new teacher. I was really lucky I did manage to get work right away. However, in my three years, each year my contracts were getting less desirable. So I went from working with one classroom to working with two classrooms my second year to working with 11 classrooms in my third year, across three schools. So literally like hopping in my car during break time, rushing to the other side of town to get to another class, and it was just really discouraging because I felt like, okay, I'm a gap filler, I'm sharing all these classes, I'm not fulfilling kind of the role that I would like to have as a teacher, so let's go somewhere. So my initial thought was let's go for somewhere abroad for two years. I'll return. Certainly by then things will be a little bit more rosy back in Canada.
Speaker 1:Those two years have turned into about 12 years now five in Germany. I taught in Frankfurt, germany, and met my wife. We eventually moved next door to Belgium and I've been here for the last nearly seven years now and have worked in schools here. So yeah, I've worked in public system the public system. I've worked in private systems, I've worked in international systems quite a wide range of things and before becoming a teacher I had a strange mix of jobs, everything from taxi driver to radio DJ to professional wrestling ring announcer to performer in a children's educational rap group. So lots of things around, sharing ideas and education.
Speaker 2:Well, you do have definitely the voice for a podcast. I was like well you know, even if you didn't know all this stuff about burnout, I was like that voice got to have that on the podcast.
Speaker 1:That was my nickname at my last school. My nickname was the Voice they would get me to share ideas with this voice. Yeah, my nickname was the Voice. They would get me to share ideas with this voice.
Speaker 2:It's a gift. Well, this podcast is about burnout, and everyone that comes on here has a burnout story to tell. However, in your case, it's almost like I don't even know if we can call it a burnout story. Maybe we call it a burnout roller coaster, burnout slingshot I'll let you decide what you want to call it, but can you tell us a little bit about your journey with burnout?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess, one other thing I would like to tag on to my journey. Along my journey, while I was in Germany, I met Brendan O'Leary, who is my co-host on our podcast, reinventing Education, and I'm sure nearly every idea that I will share with you today is partly mine in my words, but he and I together have developed all of the ideas you're going to hear about today. So shout out to Brendan and the Reinventing Education podcast as well, and it's a partnership that has continued, even though he's in Japan and I'm in Belgium, and we still get together once a week to do the podcast and build on these ideas for tools for schools. So yeah, so I started, as I said, teaching in Canada very passionate, so passionate. I was willing to move across the world to contribute as a teacher, because that's what I really wanted to be doing, and I didn't realize that up to that point, including my move to Germany, I was just really lucky, because I had been in schools that were a good match for me, that you could be in a school that wasn't a match for you. So I spent the first kind of like five to eight years or so of my career just feeling like I was crushing it, like I'm really in a place that's supporting what I want to be doing. I feel, you know, sure, I'm putting in a lot of time, a lot of blood, a lot of sweat, a lot of tears, a lot of effort, but all of this feels very meaningful and I'm collaborating with people that you know that seem to be of kind of like mind and you know, all this effort I'm putting in, wow, does this ever feel worth it? And I'm really interested to grow more and develop and expand. And you know, isn't this great I get to do this so and not to like shine myself too much. But you know, I was, by the end of my time in Germany, I was one of those classrooms that when you have visitors come to the school or when you have student teachers, you know, working with the school, my classroom is often one of the ones like, hey, you have to go see Mr McLeod's class. And you know, my students were very used to having people sit in and ask, oh, why are you doing things this way? And oh, this looks interesting and all that. So I'd really come from a place of feeling really confident. That's what I want to be doing.
Speaker 1:Then I changed schools and came to Belgium and, through a long complicated paperwork, bureaucracy story, ended up in a school that although the people were great and although I got along with people and it wasn't a toxic work environment and there were good leaders, but all of a sudden I was in a school where the closest thing I can explain it to is, like you know, when the power goes off and you walk over and you still habitually go and flick the light switch and then nothing happens, then there's that weird, awkward moment of like wait, I normally do this and get this other result Like the universe has changed around me, and that's what it felt like being in this school. All of a sudden, I was in a school that was not a match for where I was, for what I wanted to be doing and what meaningful contribution meant doing. And what meaningful contribution meant and the work that I'm sure we'll get into a little bit later came from this inquiry of how on earth could I go from this feeling like a dream being in teaching to a nightmare, and how can I go from feeling like all of the time and effort I'm putting in is totally worth it to the opposite? Not only you know, I was still putting in the same time and effort and same work. But not only was it not fulfilling, I was working in ways that I professionally and personally disagreed with and had to uphold practices that I was not in alignment, some beliefs around student learning that were not a match for me, and that first year in the school, and it was just kind of this perfect storm of the colleagues I was paired with to share classes with. Although I got along with them more or less fine on a personal level, professionally it was just completely disorienting and disheartening. And by the end of that year I was prepared Like.
Speaker 1:All it took was one year and I was so done with it and I'm I'm a little bit hesitant to just use the word burnout because I don't think all of my, I don't think every piece of my story necessarily ticks every box, but there's a Venn diagram for sure. There's an overlap where I was definitely considering leaving education and was already looking around at other options. Now this is the kind of like magical twist in the story. Due to, again, very complicated Belgian paperwork situation, I had to hold on to that contract for my paperwork and the next year I was paired with different teachers, all of the people I was team teaching with in that first year left. Miraculously enough, there is a new leadership team that came into the school and this kind of just change of personnel meant that the school was moving more in the direction of a school that we could, towards this type of school. That worked well for me previously, and I guess just the last piece I'd add on to that was.
Speaker 1:The interesting conflict was, even though I was in this kind of like nightmare state, being in the school for that first year, it was really puzzling to me that other people who were doing those exact same things and practices were not bothered by them. In fact, they were energized by it and felt they were contributing meaningfully. And that was even more perplexing to me was to be like no, this sense of having these very different practices I was interpreting as wrong. Essentially it was like no, no, I've done this. This feels wrong, whereas I can just imagine from the other person's perspective, the conversations they were having with me initially would be like whoa, dude, where are you coming from? Like, do you know how wrong that sounds? So yeah, a few threads of inquiry. How could I go from loving this role to hating this role. How could I go from one school to another and have completely different experiences, considering that the schools themselves were healthy places, these were not toxic? This was not a toxic place that I walked into, that the practices that were draining me appeared to be feeding and fueling others, and that kind of lived smacking my head against the wall.
Speaker 1:Trying to figure out what was going on led to synthesizing a few organizational development models, a few sociological models, and hours and hours and hours of chats with my co-host, brendan O'Leary, where we kind of forged this idea of the three types of school, and at their core it's saying hey, there are three different roles as an educator that you can have to contribute meaningfully in schools, and one of these works for you and the other two and knowing which of these three roles is incredibly potent, because you need to be in a place that actively encourages and supports these roles and if you are in alignment, you stand the best chance of thriving.
Speaker 1:Not to say this isn't like everything's all roses, but if you are in misalignment with your school, I don't see the possibility of how you can thrive. And this is something that was sitting right there in front of me and when I point once I saw it I couldn't unsee it, and when I share this with other educators, just like, yeah, I didn't have words for that, but I know exactly what you're talking about. Now that you've pointed it out, and for me I guess it's kind of brought this compelling feeling of like this needs to be in the conversation about education, especially at a time where we're facing burnout, teacher shortages, you know laundry list of challenges in education. Not that this will solve everything, but there are certainly a few things this would help out with dramatically.
Speaker 2:I definitely agree with you on this. Like I said, I think that had this been available to me, I would have looked into it, but you've already touched on some really important things about burnout and I also just want to say you know, sometimes when we have the worst year in teaching of our lives and sometimes that can be caused by external things that we have no control over However, when we have one of those years and it leads us to becoming better and having a better understanding, that's pretty powerful. I mean, that's growth mindset, carol Dweck's work in action. Right there, you had all of these things not going well, the effect that it can have on you, being aware of it and then noticing when some changes were made In this case they weren't changes that you sought out and made, but they were changes that made around you and then learning from that. I think so much of things in education land feel like magic. They feel like they are. You know, all the stars aligned and it was my year to have a good year in teaching instead of us sitting back and analyzing that.
Speaker 2:You know you've talked a little bit about this. You have a lot of experience with education in other countries. Three other countries Germany, belgium and Canada. I have some experience with the United States. I've had a couple of podcast guests on from schools in the UK, and then I know a little bit about the Portuguese system. Now, I've not worked in the Portuguese system, but I've talked to a lot of people because education's something I'm passionate about. And what are the similarities that you're seeing in these different systems around burnout, or perhaps even about the how the schools aren't in alignment with with the three styles? What's your take on that?
Speaker 1:yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think, because I've been in three different countries that have three different, three very different cultures around education and their schools like for lack of a better word like manifest completely differently from others. Like I've often made a joke, I have this little scrapbook of things that I was required to do in one country that would have gotten me fired in one of the other countries. So, like there's the old I think it's a Cohen or an old saying of you know the fish that's swimming in water and the other fish says like you know how's the water today? And the other fish goes what water? Like I think there are so many things in education that when you teach in one country or one province or one state, it really just feels like well, this is what schools are like, this is what education is like. But then as soon as you go somewhere else and you start to have, I would say in my experience, like basically, culture shock, from time to time you realize like, oh, the things I thought were givens are wildly different when you show up somewhere else. So I think that's also just a piece of the puzzle of why I've kind of inquired into like what's making people take in schools, because now that I've seen a few different places, I realize there's you know, what's normal in one place is not in another. But as far as the commonalities go and you know as well as just someone who does spend time on social media checking out different teaching school leadership, you know whether it's Facebook groups, reddit threads, stuff on Instagram, youtube, all that kind of stuff there do seem to be some common threads of challenges with keeping up with the demands and ever increasing curriculum. I've yet to see somewhere that says, hey, this year we've got 20% less stuff to cover. We can dive in deeper with the things that we do. Funding cuts. Very common.
Speaker 1:Teacher shortages seem to be nearly worldwide and speaking to what I'm seeing in Belgium like I'm in Brussels right now and it's really interesting how some of those things we thought were givens about school all of a sudden can change pretty quickly when the conditions change, and one of those is I believe there are eight or nine schools in Brussels this year that have shortened the school week to just four days and part of the reason for that was to avoid teacher burnout and quitting because there are teacher shortages. Here I've spoken to a few principals. I don't want to throw out false statistics, but I believe he said his school was one of only two or possibly three in Brussels that start of high schools that started the year fully staffed. So I just I putting myself in a school, in the shoes of a school leader I can't fathom starting the year saying, hey, we don't have all of our teaching positions filled. And one of the ways that obviously that is being compensated is the other teachers who are on staff rotate and take turns covering the class. So one week it's Melissa and the next week it's me and the next week it's you know, the next person, and it's just been adding the workload and workload.
Speaker 1:And one of the solutions that some schools have adopted here is like, hey, we can't do this until more people show up to fulfill these positions. So one of the options is we go down to four days and the school days are a little bit longer and we shave off a little bit of break, but, uh, you will be compensated for your extra time by no one needing to teach classes on a Wednesday. Um, so that's just been fascinating to watch, like this idea of well, schools Monday to Friday, five days a week, and then all of a sudden it's not so, um, yeah, just that's, I guess, the most, the most vivid one living here, and it's not something I've heard of a lot elsewhere, in other countries, but it's certainly one of the manifestations of the teacher shortage, the burnout and what's one systemic way schools are attempting to address the shortage of staff at this time.
Speaker 2:Well, actually there are districts in the US that are doing this as well, going to a four-day week, and it's for similar reasons. Another reason is you know a lot of times if you're a teacher and you need to. Well, one of the big things and so you know, I wrote a book too, and it's a fictitious book, but one of my pet peeves in education is it's very hard to have your own family, and so you can put a lot of things under that umbrella, but one of them is when a female teacher gets pregnant and she's trying to go through the process of that pregnancy. During any part of her school year, she has doctor's appointments, and this certainly isn't the only kind of doctor's appointment that comes up for teachers, but doctor's offices in the United States are open the same time. Schools are Monday through Friday, the same hours that we're teaching. So the four day school week actually allows educators to be able to make appointments and do whatever they need to do without needing a sub, because we also have a severe substitute shortage, which again impacts the whole staff. Severe substitute shortage which again impacts the whole staff. So you can't go. You know you can't go to school because you're sick. You know that either your administrator is going to come and cover your class for that day or other teachers have to give up their plan time and rotate throughout the day to cover your class, and so there's just so many things that causes a lot of guilt, causes frustration, overwhelm, all of those things which are definitely a part of burnout.
Speaker 2:I know here in Portugal we have teacher shortages too. They have a little bit more of an authoritarian approach to things here, which is suck it up and just do it, and teachers actually have, I think, a pretty. They have a lot of maybe a lot more respect, I think, than they did in the United States from the society and the communities that they serve. However, they frequently go on strike because they do not receive good wages. In Portugal, after you've worked at a school I think it's three years they can move you to any school in Portugal and you don't get a choice. It's not an option. You know it's just part of. So there's a lot of moving around right now because of teacher shortages.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the same things that you're saying. I know that my guests from the UK talk about the same thing too it's too much curriculum, teacher shortages, substitute shortages and low pay. All those hit the, and then we won't even go into student behavior post-pandemic. That seems to be a worldwide phenomenon as well. So we can't solve any of those things. However, if we all were working in buildings and districts and with teams that we were aligned with, that definitely makes the tough stuff a little less tough and more manageable.
Speaker 2:So this is the part I'm excited for, rob. It seems like through your work, that you have come up with a life hack for the education system, and even as you were describing it to me and talking me through it when we met before, I was thinking about where I aligned with what you were saying and it really caused my mindset to shift. And what I think you're doing is genius and should be part of professional development in every country, every school, every district, all of it. They should all be doing this at the beginning of the year. It would take one day and it would be a game changer. So can you lead us through these three types of leadership education schools?
Speaker 1:Yes, and I will attempt to do it as concisely as possible. Brennan and I we have about 120 episodes attempting to explain this in long form, but I'll do my best to give you the Coles Notes version here.
Speaker 2:And your YouTube channel, as well as the link to your book, will be part of today's show notes. So, listeners, if this just sounds like something you want to bring to your school, you want to get in touch with Rob. We're going to have those. We are going to have links to how you can do that in today's show notes.
Speaker 1:So I guess I would start with the premise that school is not one size fits all, and we use this word school and we all know what we're talking about. Like everyone knows what a school is. You've been to one, I've been to one, you know. You talk to teachers. Yes, it's the place we go, we do our work there, but of course not all schools are the same and there are different ways we can break that apart. We know that, like, some schools are better or, you know, worse off, or some schools have reputations, some schools are the easy school, some schools are the hard school, but none of those distinctions really like kind of give you traction. When we come to this piece of teacher burnout, teacher alignment, schools that are thriving, and we were definitely inspired by some models like there's Claire Graves' Spiral Dynamics that talks about different stages. There's the book Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Leloup, who just happens to be a Belgian author that was really influential, talking about the different stages that businesses and NGOs and things like that go through, and he does actually address education in there. However, myself coming from an education background, I kind of took what he said and I kind of like or Brendan and I, we reshaped it a bit more specifically to fit school context, as we saw, and what we saw being very important is there are three types of school and each represents a role that the school and its staff can play for students, and those three types are as an expert, coach or counselor. And as teachers, we tend to lean towards one of them and when we're doing the work of that role, that's when we feel we're contributing meaningfully and I think almost everyone who gets into education does so for some kind of meaningful contribution that they wish to make. And I think there are so many moving pieces in education that you know it's easy to get calloused at some point. But the thing that I think allows teachers to thrive and potentially even renew themselves is to be in alignment with that role and to be supported to do it well. So the differences between these three types is really important, because it's a missing piece of language right now, because we just talk about schools or we talk about teachers, when what's really necessary is to go down one level and to distinguish. Oh, are we talking about an expert teacher, coach, teacher or counselor teacher? Are we talking about a school that's trying to uphold the values of being an expert school, a coach school or a counselor school, and without that distinction, we're just kind of like a cocktail, throwing three very different flavors together in the same glass and just thinking that we're discussing the same thing when these three distinctions are really important. So what do these three mean? So what's different?
Speaker 1:I've got kind of a short form version questionnaire right now. We actually do have, I think, like an eight question, one in our link tree that you can find through Instagram to go into a little bit more detail, but I would say the two questions that help you find out which of the three you align with. As a teacher, first of all, to do your work, do you want autonomy, collaboration or negotiation to inform your decisions in the classroom? So, if I say a little bit more about each one, autonomy basically just says like so autonomy lines up with the expert, collaboration with the coach and negotiation with the counselor. And the autonomy for the expert is saying hey, we hire good people and we get out of their way. You're here because you're an expert. We've got trust in you. Until you show us some reason why we shouldn't trust you, we're granting you the autonomy to basically call the shots. As you see it, you are the expert in your classroom and you do as you see is best for your students. Pros and cons to all three of those, of all three of these types, but that is the kind of expert approach that says you are someone who wants to work with autonomy.
Speaker 1:The second one, the coach, says autonomy is not for me. I actually want to collaborate and typically this aligns with a school that has a school-wide, shared or shared school-wide approach to teaching and learning. So every class is kind of singing from the same hymn book. You know like each class is kind of representative of the whole school and we say, whether you're in Melissa's class or Rob's class, you know we're approaching our teaching where we've got a shared way of making decisions. Now, some of those may or may not align with what you would do if you had autonomy, but the idea here is we're collaborating because on some level you feel like this is a more efficient and effective way. I'm part of a team that's bigger than the sum of its parts. By us all kind of chipping in and as coaches sharing to this team vision, we are going to get more from it than if you left us on our own. So there's this idea of collaboration being the way that you wish to work, and again, pros and cons with all three of these.
Speaker 1:And then the third one is interesting because it actually shifts the attention away from the staff member. It's not about the teacher having autonomy with the expert. It's not about a shared collaborative approach of the coach here with the counselor. It's negotiation. And it's not negotiation with the rest of the staff, it's negotiation with the student, and all of your teaching and learning decisions are coming through negotiation with the student about what is most meaningful to them and to support them as a counselor in their self-directed learning. And your role is there to be asking questions and pointing out things that they haven't thought of on their own yet. And you're basically there to kind of developmentally help them along to pursue their own path.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of like the expert says you know, like, hey, follow me, you'll be okay. Like, do as I say, I'll get you there. The coach says, hey, there are a bunch of different ways to get there, to get to success. Let's find out which one works best for you. And the counselor kind of flips all that on the head and says, hey, let's negotiate, let's define together what success will mean and let's decide on the way that we will get you there. So that's kind of question one Do you want autonomy, collaboration or negotiation to guide your teaching decisions?
Speaker 1:And then the second question and I would say most people align sort of with the second one, as well as either the expert response, coach response or counselor, but what is your ultimate priority in the classroom If your student's left with only one of these three things? Which should it be? Or when you, as an educator, when times get tough or priorities need to be made, which of these three are you not willing to compromise on? And these are responsibility, achievement and meaning. So responsibility for the expert, achievement for the coach and meaning for the counselor. And you know I often give this kind of idea of like if you had, as an, an educator, three cards one says responsibility, one says achievement, one says meaning, and I know I've seen something on social media recently that says like teachers make more than a thousand decisions a day or whatever. And I know I've also read up that there's controversy over how accurate that research is and stuff like that. But either way, whether it's true or not, however many decisions you're making in a day, after each one.
Speaker 1:If somehow you could just press a pause button, you filtered through your three cards and then rank, ordered them like oh, why did I decide that? Was it mostly about responsibility, achievement or meaning? And kind of give them like a first, second, third, very quickly you'd see that one takes that kind of first place, gold medal spot most frequently and that's kind of the core value that you say, okay, we can pursue the other two as long as it doesn't come at the expense of this one. And the reason I'm pointing this out as sort of the second question beyond how do you want to work for me with this kind of three types of school lens that I feel like I'm constantly looking through? Now I've, it feels like the matrix opened up, where it feels like every dispute or nearly every dispute in school between staff, between staff and parents, comes down to your type's value either responsibility, achievement or meaning being sacrificed in pursuit of one of the other ones.
Speaker 1:And it's paused me as a teacher, it's paused me as a school leader, it's paused me as a parent with my own child in the school system here to realize like, oh, under whatever conversation we're having, whatever conflict is going on, most of the time, I can just drop one layer deeper and just see oh, is this really just someone shouting like, responsibility, responsibility, responsibility?
Speaker 1:And someone else is shouting achievement, achievement, achievement.
Speaker 1:And someone else is just shouting meaning, meaning, meaning, and just tapping into that, not to reduce people to those words, but actually to like, uncover what's the thing that matters most to them, that you often don't put words to, and back to that fish in water feeling. It's like this is an inherent good. I don't need to justify every time I make a decision that achievement matters or that meaning matters or the response, responsibility matters. That's just a given. And when that given comes in conflict with other initiatives in school, other school directives that you need to enforce, when it comes under new leadership at a school, when it comes with a colleague, when it comes to a parent who's either in agreement or not with you, what's influencing things underneath our conversations and education is which of these three is at stake, because I'm always going to prioritize one of them over the others. There's a lot there and they're like 50 little add-ons I want to give to those three. But when you hear this for a second time, melissa, what, what lands with you?
Speaker 2:Melissa, what, what lands with you, you know, so I, I. So this is something I wonder if other people will will struggle with too, because as a teacher, I feel like one should be more right than the others and I'm kind of having an internal fight with myself on this, because I've worked in several different schools and I think I have a lot of we'll just call it junk in my head around what my philosophy should be. But when you ask me those questions, I'm an expert. I don't want someone to Now. That may have changed over my career.
Speaker 2:In the beginning I might not have been an expert, but after I taught for a bit and I kind of knew what worked for me, I wanted to be left alone. I wanted to be trusted, and I definitely believe in responsibility my own and my students. I feel like that is far more important to me than anything they achieve. If they can be responsible for the content, I'm good. But I feel like experts are viewed as authoritarians, and I don't want that label on myself because I've been to any number of trainings and in services that have told me it is wrong to be an authoritarian teacher, and while I don't see myself as an authoritarian, I feel like experts are often put into that category.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and you're pointing out something perfectly that I refer to a lot, which is the tug of war between types in schools, and this tug of war scales perfectly from. It can be a tug of war just between two colleagues that maybe both teach grade three, or something like that. You see the tug of war in schools and you see the tug of war on a national or international level, and, with one of the ways that Brennan and I phrase this, is just like the real tug of war in education is between this expert and coach approach, and then every now and then there are counselor things sprinkled around the periphery, but there is this real tug of war about what should the consensus be on? What schools are doing? Is it expert or is it coach? And I would say that the majority of professional development that I've attended in the 16 years that I've been in school definitely leans coach and it that's fine and that will work for those who are coaches.
Speaker 1:But those who are not coaches and who are experts or who are counselors, who feel that their meaningful contribution comes in a different way and their work should come in a different way, it's simply not going to work and it's not going to align with them and we can use coaching, we can use training, we can use coercion, we can use incentives, but at the end of the day and I really believe that your type that you align with is, it's what you do when you're left alone and it's what you default to. And if you want autonomy, you're going to seek it. That one student who just like, whatever the thing is, it's their thing, it's dinosaurs and no matter what you're studying, they make it about dinosaurs. It's the same thing for us as educators, there's one of these types we align with and this is how we want to work and contribute. And no matter what you do from the other two types, we are going to revert back to ours.
Speaker 1:Or what is quite common, and this is why it's very this was very helpful to kind of clarify some of the muddy distinctions of things I was seeing in schools is you can have an approach let's just say like sort of using your context, if Melissa is an expert leaning person and your school is saying like no, no, no, we are doing this coach-based approach this year. Every type will take that thing and then reinterpret it through the language and the values of their type, and this also, to me, is at the core of a lot of wasted time, resources, strain on relationships in schools is this fact that this doesn't seem to be unmutable. This just influences everything in schools, with the people who are there, these three very different sets of values.
Speaker 2:It really does, and I can think of an example to what you're saying. So, and this is a popular one in the US I don't know about the other districts but oftentimes in that coach model school, in order to get everyone collaborating and on board leadership, will say they need to turn in their lesson plans at the beginning of the week. And I find that so insulting. I feel that it lends itself to a lack of trust in what I am doing. And I'm fairly certain any administrator I have ever had we call them administrators. Any administrator I have ever had we call them administrators, principal leader. They do not have time to sit down and go through all of those lesson plans, which makes me even angrier. However, I had, you know, because of course I would rant against this rail, against the system, and I have had colleagues that would say it's not that big of a deal. You know, I just take my plan book and copy it and shove it in the box. You know, just another another thing I already had my plans ready.
Speaker 1:Yes words to what you're saying is what you're hearing on some level from the administrator is like I don't trust you to be an expert and I'm actively working against your ability to be an expert by not giving you that trust and autonomy to do this. Like it's on that level of a role where saying like literally, I'm not allowing you to be an expert here, I'm taking that role away from you in this, in this way.
Speaker 2:When in fact it could just be. I'm just trying to get everyone to do lesson plans every week and get into that habit. So we're all doing it, we're all collaborating.
Speaker 1:And there will be experts. So this is where it now gets very complicated, because up to this point the discussion has been like okay, there's three, and that's easy to understand. I feel the first move is kind of like a horizontal one where you like go, OK, which, which of the three parties are you in? Are you in the expert, the coach or the counselor group? Like that's a really important distinction to make first. And then the second distinction is kind of a vertical one, to say, okay, well, just because you're that type doesn't mean you're great at that type. And perhaps even a distinction before I go further with that like each of these three roles are completely different job descriptions, Like the skills necessary to be a great expert teacher don't necessarily translate to being a great coach or counselor teacher and vice versa.
Speaker 1:So the first move is this kind of horizontal move Get into the right group. Like find your people, find your collective. And then the second one is a vertical one, to say you know, just because you're this type doesn't mean you're amazing at it. Like you know, I can be a coach teacher and be a pretty garbage coach teacher. Like there are skills and capacities. It's not just the values, it's not just oh, I want the collaboration and capacities. It's not just the values, it's not just oh, I want the collaboration. You know I'm all about achievement. Bang, I've got it. No, no, that's like a personal conviction. That's great. That's the first step. Now we want to help you be the best expression of that type, Because once you name your type, then you can get clear on what does it look like to be an incredible coach or an incredible counselor or an incredible expert for students? How do we serve in these ways?
Speaker 2:I think it would also help one see kind of what your own obstacles like. We all have certain things in common, right? Like I've been called a bully before by a colleague and I did not see it, I would question bully, know it all? I'm an expert, you know, I know it all. That not bully, just I think I know everything sometimes. So I would assume for the experts out there I'm not putting words in your mouths, but I think there would be some common personality traits that these types have.
Speaker 1:Yes and no. So that's really interesting because I think there are easy stereotypes. For sure, when people hear expert, often people kind of imagine the like you know stuffy old slightly, you know short, curt teacher, really strict, you know maybe an authoritarian, that kind of thing to mind for sure and for sure you will find teachers that match that on a personality or disposition level. But you're also going to find the like, whatever the opposite of that is in your own definition, but like the grandmotherly, young or seasoned veteran teacher teaching in kindergarten, because it's not about their disposition necessarily. It's easy to jump to that piece. But you will find, like I just did a video where I kind of just made like a quadrant thing of I said like you know, when we were ranking our teachers we kind of had like the easy to hard line and then we had the kind of like easy to like rigorous line or like strict and and you know, friendly or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then we can kind of create those four boxes of and we can all kind of like teachers come to mind. We're like, oh, who is the easy, you know, kind of permissive one, okay, but who is the kind of like strict but still like a bit permissive one? Who is the, you know, we kind of like? You could find all three types in any of those four boxes. I guess is what I'm trying to get at. You can be of any personality, disposition and be any of these three types.
Speaker 1:But of course certain stereotypes pop into mind, like the, the ceo who accidentally became a teacher. Sure, I'm probably going to find those in the coaches, the like, you know, screw the system. Like I'm here for you, let's not get bogged down by. You know the demands of, of everybody around you, what's your truth? Type thing. Sure, you'll find some of those in counselor, but you will find the complete field of personalities across all three, all three types, for sure, and I can vote for that, having worked with teachers of every disposition and personality that would align with any of the three types.
Speaker 2:So where do we take this from here? I mean so once you kind of know your type. So let's go back in time. I'll have a maybe life here with you. Go back in time.
Speaker 2:I can tell you my last building that I worked at I was like, well, I finally found a good building. But what you're saying is resonating with me because I'm thinking everybody did their own thing in that building and we still had staff meetings, we still worked together, we had committees and grade level things that we had to do, but it didn't feel as yucky as it had in other buildings. And when I went to my administrator and said I have a concern about this, I always felt heard, I always felt like my opinion was respected and valued. And so I just thought, wow, it's my last year, we were moving to Portugal, so there was no staying at that point. But, as you alluded to paperwork, nightmares, that had been done and we needed to go. And I thought, well, you know, wow, finally, 15 years of teaching in my final year I got a good building. So what could I have done? If I wanted to continue my career, I could have stayed there, but what else?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, like you said, you know, it's kind of like things in schools just feel like magic and your experience is kind of, I think, the inverse of what I was describing, of my nightmare year, which was like oh I, you know Melissa kind of like stumbled into a school that I was a great fit for and you know, it feels like things are clicking here. And it feels that way when we don't have just these three simple terms of like hey, I'm an expert, I work better in expert schools. Hey, I'm a coach, I'm going to do better in a place that leans coach, I'm a counselor, I'm going to lean better in a place that's counselor. Because all three of them have ideas about what a good education is and they are all good, all of them can contribute very meaningfully, and this is even one layer we haven't got into yet.
Speaker 1:We've talked about staff, we've talked about leaders, we've talked about schools, but for students, it is my belief that there are some students, or most students, who just one of these three types works best for them, especially when it's done well, and I've definitely seen that, where I've seen schools change from an expert school that wasn't working, they get into a coach school and now all of a sudden things are great and vice versa. And you know, same with students who are in counselor-based schools, and that wasn't working and they switched to an expert or a coach, and then all of a sudden, same kid, different role that the school is playing, and things change completely. So your question was what could you have done differently? What I would say is, when you take your time machine, take this episode with you go back.
Speaker 1:So in a hypothetical world where we have this language which would be like my ultimate dream I think we said this at the start of the conversation like my hope would be this is day one of teacher's college at some point, like this is the very first thing you are introduced to. To say, hey, everything else is downstream from this. You get this figured out and then every other decision is informed by this. Anyways, that you're going to do in this career and same for principals, school leaders, leaders, administrators, like day one of your leadership training is this like which of these three are you going to do by default? Right, because it's going to make sense for you to show up to one of these that fits your type, you're aligned with and matches the context that you're in, or else you're just going to be upstream and burnt out and not a match and things won't work. So go back in time with this language and to me, I think just the first, first layer of this is just to know your type. To know your type, and that in itself is already an incredible navigation tool, because you can either actively find a school that leans closer towards your type, as you described, when you finally found a school where you're like, oh, this is a great match. Or if that's not possible for any variety of reasons, you can still use that as your guidance of well, how can I still contribute meaningfully and at least tick the boxes this school is requiring of me and not sacrifice this role. And not sacrifice this role and, using this language, it allows you to own what it is that you need to be doing for yourself to feel, as an educator, that you're contributing meaningfully. So for me, that first layer is just simply knowing your type and navigating towards it as best as you can, as best as you can. My next bits of advice are about like a hundred other applications for this, but I would say that's. If everyone could just do that, I would be fascinated to see what the impact on the education system would be.
Speaker 1:And you know, one of the nicest, or most, I guess, heart touching letters I ever received was at the end of the year. I had a third year teacher who started at our school and you know I was like the head of the sort of the middle school, and at the end of the year they gave me a book as like my going away gift and end of the year gift and at the end of the year they gave me a book as like my going away gift and end of the year gift. And then it was a letter where she just said the very first thing you asked us on day one of training, when I was new to the school, was which type of teacher do I want to be? And you know I used my 15 minutes to welcome new people to introduce a very simplified version of this and this colleague just said you know, I I had done like my four or five years training, you know the degree and teacher's college to get my teaching certification. I had already been teaching for three years and I realized I'm seven years into this and I'd never had to stop and actually think about this. And that's changed everything for me this year.
Speaker 1:And that was just one of several anecdotes where I was like, oh, the potency of this, like we don't. Of course there's the larger system, as we were starting to allude to even before we started recording. The odds are stacked against us overall in education. If we can't reinvent the entire system at this time and start from scratch or completely modify what is, how can we at least tap into untapped potential that's already sitting there. And to me, this is the most impactful thing because, at least from my very biased viewpoint, this is what's influencing and pulling the strings of everything in our schools and it's something we're not directly addressing.
Speaker 1:And I guess just one final point on that is just, this isn't something new to bring to our schools, and I think, for more than three years starts to get a little bit tired when, oh, this is the new thing. And especially when you're 10 and 15 years in oh, this is the new thing we're doing. Oh, this is now the good thing. Oh, this is the thing that research says is the best. Oh, this is you know. Oh, we're abandoning everything that used to be good. This is the new thing.
Speaker 1:Well, this isn't something new. This is just pointing out what is already there, what is already influencing people, what's already influencing schools' decisions, what's already influencing classrooms, and it's pointing it out and giving a language to it so that we can actually more effectively work with what's there and even speak to. All three types like to be more responsible, to have greater achievement, to make school more meaningful for everyone involved. This is already there. We can choose not to acknowledge this, but that doesn't make us immune to the impact of it. We're still going to be affected by this, whether we're addressing this or not, so this isn't something new. This is just simply pointing out what we're already doing, with the hopes that this is an attempt to do school better on the terms of these three very different ideas of what good school looks like and empowering the people involved to have the language to do so.
Speaker 2:And I love what you said. This is from student to leadership, and knowing your own style is going to have you look through a different lens, but also knowing someone else's style is going to have you receive what they're putting out through a different lens as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, completely.
Speaker 2:So how can my listeners get to your work? You have the YouTube channel, so can you tell us a little bit about that and any other things that you have out there where they can access you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I guess the three for now. We have the Reinventing Education podcast, which you can find on any podcast platform. That's the podcast with Brendan and I. We also have our YouTube channel, same name, reinventing Education podcast. Name Reinventing Education Podcast. And we have Instagram.
Speaker 1:At this point looking to possibly move into other spaces, but those are the three easiest ways. Hopefully, one of those lines with you you can find us that way. You can always email reinventingeducationpodcast at gmailcom. And yeah, we have all of our podcast episodes. But I'm attempting to summarize and synthesize down the things we've talked about today and from all of our podcast episodes into a book that has an R-rated title, which is Schools that Give a Fuck and that, to me, kind of summarized the most common thing I heard from educators who care deeply. This wasn't my attempt to find some kind of like attention grabbing you know, immature title. That was just a phrase that came up again and again and again talking to teachers who were not in alignment with their schools, of their desire to contribute meaningfully in alignment with their schools, of their desire to contribute meaningfully, but they kept using this R-rated version. So I just thought I'm going to run with the name that has arisen authentically.
Speaker 2:I'll kind of like.
Speaker 1:I'll keep paraphrasing that giving a fuck means you're contributing meaningfully and we want schools that empower people to do that. And we want schools to care, schools that empower people to do that, and we want schools to care. And back to you know one of our earlier points here with funding cuts, increased curriculums, student behavior challenges, teacher shortages, the again the laundry list of challenges we're facing. One of the things that I think a lot of teachers feel is just like okay, what can I control, what can't I? And it feels like there are an ever increasing list of things that are out of my control. And I think by even just saying something like you know, like I give a fuck. We want schools that give a fuck, like the, the opposite, schools that don't care, schools that become apathetic, schools and teachers that breed cynicism, apathy, all these things it's like that's definitely not going to be a solution for this. So let's actively name this, call it out and sure, swearing every now and then like brings a bit of that empowered pushback feel of like this is what I want.
Speaker 2:I've worked in those schools full of apathy and cynicism and the common phrase there is nobody gives a fuck Exactly so there you go, so we're going to go ahead and close it down. I will have links to everything that we talked about in today's show notes. Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we end this?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess, just one last thing about the book share before we end this. Well, I guess, just one last thing about the book. It's been an ever, ever increasing or the date for release keeps getting pushed, because I realized that, as I'm sure you found out to some degree, just because you want to write a book and have ideas you can write a book about, doesn't mean you're great at writing a book. Just like I said, just because you're a type of teacher doesn't mean you're great at writing a book. Just like I said, just because you're a type of teacher doesn't mean you're great instantly in that type. So my hope is that this is out spring, late spring of 2025. But I'll just put an asterisk beside that like date subject to change. But if you find us on any of the other three platforms our podcast, the YouTube or Instagram will have updates as to when the book will be ready there for people. Kickstarter is coming soon, so Perfect.
Speaker 2:And you can always reach out to me and I'll put it in my stuff too, to let people know. Thank you, Melissa.
Speaker 1:No, I guess just the last piece. Um well, yeah, connecting this back all to Burnout, I just feel like these three types. Like I said, it's not going to solve every problem, but had I had this in my roller coaster slingshot time, that could have been a very helpful navigational tool for me that I was missing, and my hope is, with a model like this, a way to see things, it could help someone or some educators who might be on a similar trajectory that I was on of just simply being misaligned with your school and all of the challenges that compound on top of that. And my hope would be that having this language of the three types in some contexts might at least be a key to alleviating that burnout or helping people to make conscious choices about a place that is a better fit for them.
Speaker 2:I think it will. Thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Melissa. It's been a pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Inez. If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations, please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can. It's as simple as copying the link you use to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media. I'm a small, independent operation and your shares broaden our audience. Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout. If you would like to get your voice on my podcast, contact me via the link on my webpage taughtbuzzsproutcom. Coach, speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message. Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout.
Speaker 2:This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for listening to taught the podcast. I wish I knew I have an important reminder. Slash disclaimer to share. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company. Content provided on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as professional advice. We encourage you to do your own research and consult with qualified professionals before making any decisions based on the information discussed in this or any other episode. Additionally, any opinions or statements made during the podcast are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company or individual Listener. Discretion is advised. Thank you for tuning in.