Seeing Through Their Lens

Joe McQueen, author of "Calming Young Minds," doesn't just talk about education—he lives it every day. After 27 years working with youth that others often turn away from, Joe brings a raw authenticity to this powerful conversation about seeing the world through students' eyes and the systemic issues driving teacher burnout.

"We forget that our kids developmentally are in the same place we were, but in a different world than we were," Joe explains, highlighting how adults often fail to adapt their approaches to children's perspectives. This disconnect becomes increasingly problematic as educational environments evolve while teaching methods remain rooted in outdated paradigms.

The conversation takes a candid turn when exploring the realities of educator burnout. Joe shares his own experiences of questioning his career path and the limited options available to educators seeking alternatives. His insights on being "the meat in the sandwich" as an administrator—caught between top-down pressures and the needs of teachers and students—resonates deeply with anyone who's navigated educational leadership roles.

Perhaps most compelling is Joe's critique of educational policymaking. Unlike fields where experts make the decisions (think surgeons guiding medical policy), education policies are typically created by politicians with minimal classroom experience. "We're one of the only fields where all the decisions made for us are made by people who have no idea what we do every single day," he observes, pointing to a fundamental disconnect driving many of education's most entrenched problems.

Whether you're an educator struggling with burnout, a parent trying to understand today's educational challenges, or someone passionate about systemic reform, this episode offers both validation and a roadmap for change. Subscribe to Taught, the podcast for more conversations that tackle the real issues in education without sugar-coating the difficulties or oversimplifying the solutions.

Contact Joe!

https://www.theraputicperspectives.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-mcqueen-3607292

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Kids Through a Different Lens
• 2:30 Joe McQueen's Educational Journey
• 9:51 From Classroom to Consulting
• 16:06 Teaching Resources and Administrative Challenges
• 22:43 The Politics of Education
• 34:05 Treating People with Dignity and Respect
• 41:24 Fixing the System, Not the People
• 1:03:30 Episode Closing and Disclaimer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

We forget that our approach needs to be adapted to the.

Speaker 1: 0:07

You know their abilities and the way that they see the world. It's through a completely different lens than us, but we forget that when we become, you know, in our 30s, because we're still developing, in the 20s, but you know. But we forget what it was like to see the world through that lens and we also forget the world has changed a lot. You know, especially for, like us, gen X people, it's a totally different world junior, high, high school, elementary than it was, you know, when I was that young. It's a completely different world and I think we forget that and we forget that our kids, developmentally, are in the same place we were, but in a different world than we were. And if we don't take, you know, a step back and try to say, well, how can I see the world through their lens and be more relatable to that and be able to talk to them on their level, then we're not going to be able to work with them. We're just going to be another adult trying to tell them what to do.

Speaker 2: 1:10

A few years ago, I started writing a fictitious story based on my time as an educator. It is called Taught, and the story was partially inspired out of anger and frustration fueled by burnout. Okay, actually, it was more than partially inspired by anger and frustration. But taught has also become a vehicle for me to tell what I thought at the time and in some ways continue to think was and is the real story of teaching. I now realize that my perspective is not everyone's perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators perspective, but there are some pieces of taught that resonated with many educators. This podcast is an extension of that story and I, a former teacher, will interview other educators, asking them to share how they really feel about the current state of education. Why are so many teachers burnout? Why are so many like me leaving the field? We likely won't solve any problems or come up with any solutions, but we can create a community of voices that maybe begin the conversation around how educators can take back teaching. I'm Melissa LaFleur. Welcome to Taught, the podcast. I like to be educated, but I'm so frustrated.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Hey, everybody, today I'm honored to have Joe McQueen, author of Calming Young Minds and a true force for change in education. Joe isn't just a principal or just a consultant. He's a veteran of the trenches and for over 20 years he's dedicated his life to the youth that others, sadly, usually want to turn away. He's been there, he understands, and he's still in the classroom and in the system. He's working with kids every single day. Joe believes that to truly train others, you have to live the experience. This isn't theory or data points. This is real life, raw and unfiltered. He's someone who understands the kids he works with and he brings that empathy, coupled with his deep expertise in trauma-informed practices and leadership, to every conversation at every level, and leadership to every conversation at every level. Today, joe is here to share his hard-won wisdom, his passion and his unwavering belief in the potential of every child. So let's dive in, joe. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 1: 3:37

Thank you, that was a great introduction. I appreciate that. I'm super excited.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Well, I have to tell you, you had a lot of things for accolades and I mean I was like, ok, how am I going to condense all of this? So I actually felt like I left a few things out, but I think we'll cover them in our conversation today. So can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and what are you doing now in the world of education?

Speaker 1: 4:04

Sure, I'm. Currently I'm the principal for a therapeutic day school with Menta, which is a group that has various therapeutic day schools throughout Illinois and Arizona and Texas pretty soon in Missouri as well. I've been in education for gosh, almost 27 years. I started off residential when I got out of the military. I went to college, I got a job, working residential, and wasn't sure what I was going to major in. At first I wanted to be maybe a therapist and then I started working with these kids and I was like these are like my people, I totally get them. I was diagnosed as a kid with with adhd and oppositional defiance and a behavior disorder and um, and I knew what it was like to have people, especially adults, like to feel like they didn't like you because you were difficult or annoying or, um, you know, you just weren't like all the other kids. You weren't weren't like all the other kids, you weren't as easy as all the other kids and I thought these are my people. And so I switched my major over to special education and became an LBS1, which is a learning behavioral specialist. I started off in the classroom with back then what they called LDBD learning disabilities and behavior disorders. Now that's an emotional disability is what they call it. Ld is still around. They still call it learning disability and that's where I started and I worked in a classroom for many, many years. I worked residential detention centers, I worked as a rehab counselor for gang kids as a night job and then eventually moved up to an administrator and have worked in alternative education and therapeutic day schools for my whole career as an administrator. And that's where I am, twenty seven years later. I wrote a book, I do a lot of consulting, I did some keynote speaking, I speak at some conferences. I've got one in about two weeks that I'm going to talk at and things like that. I just do whatever I can do to stay busy.

Speaker 1: 6:16

And I think the biggest reason I wanted to start doing trainings on my own was because I, you know, you go to a lot of trainings. That's what they do when you're a teacher. They tell you that they have, you know, so many hours of training and that's fine. And I always thought, gosh, you know, I feel like most of these people are telling me stuff which is really great, based on, like you know, data that they've gathered and surveys that they've done and information and stuff, but I don't feel like any of them have ever been in the trenches to deal with kids and some of the things they're telling me. I'm thinking to myself I would never do that. That would never work. I understand in theory why you feel like that would work, but I do this every day and if I applied some of the things you're telling me to do, it's not going to work. And so I just started working with I have a really good friend of mine who's a child psychiatrist and another very good friend of mine who's a child and family therapist, and I said, hey, I want to start developing different trainings that are that are real, based on real life experience. But I want you guys to kind of guide me to make sure that I'm not going off into left field here, and I have a bunch of data and research that I've done as an educator, because that's what you have to do too, and I'd like to apply all that. And so that's what I did and started doing a lot of trainings and I think the feedback I got a lot, especially from educators, was I feel like you get it and I was like, well, I do, because tomorrow I have to go do it. Yeah, I'm not just telling you things that I think would work. I'm telling you things that over the last 20 years that I know work and the approaches that I know work, and I just kind of ran with it from there.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And then I was at a big national conference and I was doing a session and one of the keynote guys came and talked to me later and he said you know, hey, where can I buy your book? And I was like, oh gosh, I don't have a book. And he said how do you not have a book? And I was like I don't know, I'm just not. You know, I can't imagine not the smartest guy in the world, I can't imagine writing a book. And he said you know, at the end of your training, you those and put them in a book. And I thought, oh, I never thought of it that way. And so that's what I did. I just took those and then sat down and just started converting the trainings into more of a narrative, you know, to fit more of a book format. And that's what I did and then ended up here, and that's how life has been Well.

Speaker 2: 8:44

You know, it's no coincidence that you wrote a book, because there isn't really anything like what you wrote out there and I can see why people would want that. And I thought about this because I looked at your book and one of the things. So one year this is a terrible story, so I'm just going to preface it with that In the district that I worked at, we were required to have this special education portion called Gifted and Talented, which is already a crap title for a program in my opinion, and they didn't have anybody to teach it. So what they did was they put all the kids who were on IEPs for having learning exceptionalities in one class and then that teacher was supposed to enrich the curriculum for them. And so I got the pleasure of being that teacher and I didn't mind enriching curriculum, don't get me wrong, I just well.

Speaker 2: 9:51

Anyway, students in this population there have been whenever I'm also qualified for ESL, I have my certification in that area and we had books that were like here's everything you need to know about kids that speak other languages, that are coming from other countries. These are the things that you need to do as a classroom teacher. But as I was looking through your book, I thought out of all the students I had over my 15 years of teaching. I definitely probably had a student in every category that you write about, and I just love how the book is set up because it's like so I as a teacher could have gotten an IEP and I taught middle school a lot of my career but gotten an IEP and looked and said, oh well, this student has this learning disability.

Speaker 2: 10:57

I could have gone to your book, I could have looked up that specific thing and then had the tools that I needed right there to do what I needed to do. Ideally, the IEP does that, but those of us that work in this business know that the IEP is only as good as the IEP writer, and kids are pretty mobile these days, so sometimes you get an IEP from another state that's not in compliance with the state that you're in, and it's just a whole thing. I think your book really levels all of that and creates a really nice space for teachers to go to, and I am going to link your book in today's show notes and I will have it in the information that I put out for the podcast, because I think once people know it's there. They're going to want it. Do you do pretty well with the book?

Speaker 1: 11:52

I do okay, it's some good months and some months that are a little bit low, but I don't do too bad too bad. Also, you know I do a lot of. I have a table at the conference that I'm going to, so I'll be able to sit down and sell some books there but also talk to people about things and answer questions, and I think that's far more enjoyable than anything. My goal was never to, you know, be able to quit teaching, because I wrote a book that's, you know, like a New York Time bestseller. The goal was to give teachers a tool that, in my opinion, was effective and real and, coming from a place, you know, that's more heartfelt and not so much like you know, 35% of kids do this and 27% respond to this and 19 percent, you know, but, saying this is, this is what I see. Here's the scenario, here's how we approached it and this is the difference it made.

Speaker 2: 12:51

And I think that's what we need is classroom teachers. I can only speak for myself. I'm going to put my voice on the classroom teacher. But, joe, I mean to be honest with you more and more. My every year, the last five years I was teaching, I had more students with significant behavior problems and whether they were labeled something or identified something, I feel like many of the strategies in your book can be used for the general student population. They don't need a label to have a caring practice for a certain behavior.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think and I tell people a lot that you know, this is the approach we should take with really with all humans, but especially our little ones, our young humans, who you know, just developmentally and I talk a little bit in the book, I try not to go too sciencey but, you know, based on brain development, they don't have a fully developed brain and so they don't think the same way we think as adults and we forget that. We forget that our approach needs to be adapted to the. You know their abilities and the way that they see the world. It's through a completely different lens than us.

Speaker 1: 14:02

But we forget that when we become, you know, in our 30s, because we're still developing in the 20s, but you know, but we forget what it was like to see the world through that lens and we also forget the world has changed a lot. You know, especially for, like us, gen X people, it's a totally different world junior, high, high school, elementary than it was, you know, when I was that young. It's a completely different world and I think we forget that and we forget that our kids, developmentally, are in the same place we were, but in a different world than we were. And if we don't take you know a step back and try to say, well, how can I see the world through their lens and be more relatable to that and be able to talk to them on their level, then we're not going to be able to work with them, we're just going to be another adult trying to tell them what to do.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Yep, I agree. Well, I know that you couldn't have been short on job offers on your journey because you are my friend working in a couple of the top areas of burnout. So special education. You know my first podcast that I did for this, my first episode for this podcast, I called when the portable is on fire. You know burnout and special education because usually special education is put out in the portable and elementary schools. But I mean I probably have more special educators reach out saying I'm burned out. And I can tell you that was the position. It seemed like every year we had a new special education teacher, no matter what district, building or grade level I was working in, because they just, they just burn out. So this podcast is about burnout and do you have a burnout story that you'd like to share with us?

Speaker 1: 16:00

Oh, I could share so many. I think, especially in the world that I specialize in, where I mean, you know, I don't go many days without having to deal with very angry young people from, you know, elementary all the way up to high school, elementary all the way up to high school and it's a lot of stress, you know, to be the brunt of that I call it like being that solid object that a lot of times they break themselves against and a lot of it has to do. As much as we forget it should be an honor. The reason they attack us is because we're the safest person they have to do that with. And so I mean, yeah, they're just dealing with, you know, being assaulted and having kids come at you every day, verbally and physically. You do have a lot of days where you just think I, you know, as I get older, I think I'm just getting too old for this, I'm not physically as built for it as I used to be, and mentally it takes a toll over time. You know we experienced a lot of secondary trauma, you know by that, by proxy trauma, and so there's been quite a few times.

Speaker 1: 17:16

You know I've, and you know people might look at my resume and say, like you know, gosh, like every seven years you move to another school, might look at my resume and say, like you know, gosh, like every seven years you move to another school. And I think, well, because about every five I start to question what am I doing? Why am I here? Am I making a difference? But I also feel like not to. You know, sound like I'm amazing at this, but I go into places that are really in a really bad place and then, within five or six years, I get them to a completely different place, and then I find myself a little bit bored. I'm like, well, gosh, all the kids are mostly doing what they're supposed to do. Everybody's trained to deal with most of the issues. We don't have as many of those issues anymore. And then, of course, there's, you know, the people above me politically who, you know, pull the reins back and say you know, there's only certain things we can do based on budgets and stuff like that. And but there's been a lot of times gosh the hours I've spent Googling what can I do with a master's in special ed? Or what can I do with a, you know, a master's in administration? That's not in schools and there's just not a lot out there, you know, and teachers are kind of people without a country.

Speaker 1: 18:25

I like to say I remember I wrote a paper in grad school about how we're not really thought of as white collar workers because we're not really thought of as professionals, so we're not accepted in that fold of professionals, although a lot of times we have more advanced degrees, but we're just not seen as professionals, although we're very professional, but we're also not seen as you know professionals, although we're very professional, but we're also not seen as like a blue collar worker, because you know they, but people don't think, well, you don't really work for a living, you know. Well, I do, I do a lot of work. So we're kind of in the middle there. And so when we look at, like, what career can I do outside of this career that I've trained in and that I'm passionate about, but I've maybe lost my passion or it's sort of fizzled out, there's just not a lot. And so I see a lot of teachers that go into fields where I'm like, you know, like retail or sales. You know they do a lot of sales of educational equipment or educational curriculum and things like that and not. You know a lot of times that might pay a little better. It's not hard to beat a teacher salary, but it's, you know, you're, you're kind of limited. There's not a lot of places you can jump off and start doing things.

Speaker 1: 19:35

I thought about doing consulting, but then I miss the kids and I also feel like if I went into just doing consulting then I would be that guy who's telling people how to work with kids, who doesn't work with kids, and I feel like, in order to be authentic and really be able to train people, I have to be in these trends, I have to be in their shoes, I have to put on the same boots that they put on every day and go into the same world they go into every day.

Speaker 1: 20:02

But yeah, I've burnt out so many times where I've sat at home and spent just weeks, um, you know, googling and looking up and, um, you know, I've even applied for jobs and I don't get any calls or hires and I'm like, well, I guess this is where I'm at. And usually, you know, I can get myself back to a place where I'm like this is what you do, this is what you love, you're just going through. It's kind of like marriage, I think you know, if you want a marriage to last, you have to understand that sometimes you're not going to really like your partner that much. But if you stick it out and you work through it, then you'll love them even more in the end. And I think that's kind of how education is. You know, sometimes I really don't like my job.

Speaker 2: 20:47

Well, and there comes a point and you're definitely there, my friend where you become a master in your field. You become the expert. And once you've kind of achieved that expert level, no matter what it is, it's not that you pigeonhole yourself there, but that's your area of expertise. So anything that you go into, you're going in kind of at an entry level. And I told you at the beginning of this podcast and I'm 54, and I'm not really feeling open to being a beginner at anything Again, I'm willing to learn, but I want to work in areas where my expertise also can be used. I have my master's in English, so AI is edging me out of every field that I could potentially go into. So it's what do you do with that? Start a podcast, but it doesn't pay that well.

Speaker 2: 21:46

But I think a lot of teachers at your place in life are there and I was going to say you also are wearing the second hat where I have had lots of people reach out and say, hey, you need to do a podcast about administrators and the burnout in that area.

Speaker 2: 22:04

But believe it or not, joe, most administrators are not willing to come on.

Speaker 2: 22:10

So I've tried to get a couple of retired administrators who are friends of mine and they say they're going to do it and then they don't follow through, and I think that really it's kind of once you hit the retirement goal as an administrator, you just kind of want to live a different life and maybe don't want to go back and discuss all the issues with administration. But one of the areas that I see and you can confirm or deny this is that administrators are, at this, really weird. They're the meat in the sandwich, the peanut butter right, because they've got all this top-down pressure and then they've got this staff that has to work together to get the work done. They're responsible for making them do that, and a lot of staff members and a lot of buildings across the United States are really unhappy right now, and it's not really the administrator's fault, but they're the ones that oftentimes get blamed. So I think that I don't think there's ever been more stress on administrators than there is right now. So what are your thoughts on this?

Speaker 1: 23:27

Well, I'm fortunate because I went from working in the public sector to now I'm in the private corporate sector and so I don't have a school board that's going to be making phone calls to me after I do this podcast wanting to tear into me, and I think that really I'm fortunate enough and I don't say this to get kudos from the company that I work for but our CEO started off as a parapro and then, was a special ed teacher and he's come to my school on a on you know a couple of different occasions and the kids will say, oh, you're the big boss.

Speaker 1: 24:04

And he always says I'm not the boss, mr McQueen's the boss, I'm just a guy that came by to hang out and um, and so they get it. And because we are a corporate entity but we're also a not-for-profit, that means all of our money goes back into what we do. It has to legally, we have to put our money back into it. So our need for things is never a major issue. Like if my teachers come to me and they need something, I don't have to go. Well, gosh guys, you know, I can just call up and say, hey, I need this and so far, about 95% of the time they're like okay, give us quotes on it and we'll get it sent over, we'll get it shipped, we'll get it taken care of.

Speaker 1: 24:45

But I know that, coming from the public world, you have to be the filter and I think that's the most difficult part and I still do this in my job as well. You have to be the filter from the top to the teachers and a lot of times the information that you're getting you know as an educator. That's not what these guys want to hear. So I have to find a way to present this to where not that it's appealing, but it's less of a blow to them, because it was a huge blow to me. And now I have to process it and present it. And I think that's the most difficult part is being that filter between the two, being the buffer between the above you and the people that you work with. I don't typically refer to the people that work with me as my teachers. I usually refer to them as my team, because we're all part of a team and so that can be the really hard part, and I know that working.

Speaker 1: 25:38

You know I've been in the public world. You have school boards. I feel like I can say this because I don't have one and my boss is super cool, so they would probably be like yeah, that's true, you have a lot of people who are on school boards who are people who don't know anything about education. It's an elected position. Usually they run for school board because their kid's in school and they want to make sure that their child is getting the best education in the world. But what we forget to look at is if you can afford to run for school board and you can afford to do all those things, your child is probably in the minority. Your kid is in a different world than the majority of the students who are on free lunch and don't have the same home life and don't have the same resources. And so you see how you want the school to run through a lens of somebody who has, you know, typically a well-adjusted upper middle class sort of child and you forget about. Well, not that you forget about, but you probably just don't care about all the other kids. And so when it comes to spending, you're like well, why are we spending money on those kids? Well, because those kids are the majority of our population. And so now you've got a group of people who haven't been educators.

Speaker 1: 26:49

Every once in a while you'll get some school board members who are like retired teachers and they probably are pretty good school board members, but most of them are just people from the community who've never worked in your world and they want to rule over what you do. And so I heard a lady one time say something and I thought God, that makes so much sense. And she said the administrators are scared of the school board. The teachers are scared of the administrators, and the school board's afraid of the children, and the children aren't afraid of anybody, children aren't afraid of anybody. And so you know there's all those kind of silly things or the way that they do things just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1: 27:28

And you're in that position where you have to make it make sense, even though you sat at home thinking this makes no damn sense at all, this isn't good for our kids at all. But I have to spin this somehow or I have to be able to serve this up in a way that people will be OK with it, even though it's not OK. And I'm not OK with it, but I have to pretend like I'm OK with it because I want my job, because I can be fired by this board if I don't do what they say, and so it's a very complex position to be in because you want to do what's right for kids, in, because you want to do what's right for kids, and that's really always the goal is to do what's right for kids. But you're not always being ruled by people who know what's right for kids. They have their own opinions and thoughts and and it's not based on any kind of experience. They've never been in in those trenches that we're in every day. And you know, and, and sometimes teachers can be difficult.

Speaker 1: 28:18

I tell my wife a lot that sometimes the hardest part of my job is dealing with the adults, but I think that I'm very approachable and in my office I don't have an office I sit out in the common areas where my desk is kids and you know, if a teacher comes and tells me something about a kid, I probably already know because I'm working with that kid and with them all day. So I think you know there is that separation. But I think that separation could be changed by administrators, and that's my opinion. I'm sure there's plenty of administrators that would say you don't have, you have no idea how much work I have to do every day. Well, yeah, I do, cause I do that work too, but I also spend the majority of my day on the floor with the kids.

Speaker 1: 29:07

That means that I come in, you know, two hours early and I stay a little late, but that's just what it has to. You know it has to be sometimes, but it's. It's definitely a lot of pressure coming from both sides. You know, when you talk about that sandwich. There's a lot of push from the people that are on your team and a lot of push from the people who are above you and they all have you know kind of their own agenda. Some good, some that don't make sense, you know. But yeah, being that buffer, that person that has to say, ok, how do I make all parties happy, can be really stressful sometimes.

Speaker 2: 29:43

And I'm going to tell you, I have been that difficult teacher and there wasn't anything my administrator could do to make me happy because I was pissed off about something. So I think a lot of it is. For some of the administrators I have had, it was just allowing me to have space to vent, but they're still absorbing that right. They're knowing that I'm unhappy and there's not much they can do about it, which really puts them behind the eight ball in many, many ways, not just with teachers. But so I appreciate you saying that. I also appreciate you saying about the.

Speaker 2: 30:24

We have a lot of people making decisions that are coming, you know, from maybe not quite the 2%, but really close to the 2% and the other we'll say 90% of the population isn't living that lifestyle. You know, I have sat through many in-services where we've talked about things that made me feel that, even though we have the training on ACEs and we've talked about what our you know, our free and reduced populations, some characteristics that are there for those families, some things they may have experienced, and we know that those populations are high we have the numbers there. We still have. We tend to forget. It tends to be forgotten when rules are being put into place or policy. It's very, very frustrating. So I really I really appreciate you bringing that up, because I don't think it gets acknowledged nearly as much as it should be.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Yeah, thank you. I, you know, I used to tell people and this current administration is very, very different. It makes everything I've said untrue. But you know, when you look at fields like the medical field, you have like a surgeon general and that person's chosen because they are. They stand out in the medical field, they're considered one of the best in the medical field and they sit down with other doctors and they make medical decisions. What are the procedures we do? And this is even down to you know construction. We have professionals that say you know, when you're building a house you need to use this size of a beam and you know supports need to be done this way and foundations need to be laid that way. And those decisions are made by people who've worked in that field for years and who are considered standout experts in that field.

Speaker 1: 32:19

But in education it's never that way. It's politicians who've never been teachers never set foot in a classroom and their education probably looked very different, especially if they were educated in the private sector private schools and tuition schools and things like that. So they don't understand what it's like to set foot in a public school in a rural area or a suburban area. They they've never done that and they're the ones that are sitting down going. I think we should do it this way and I always think based on what your vast experience of being in multiple schools over many years and teaching and you know diverse situations no, it's based on what you think or what you thought or you know what some parent told you, based on your circle of people that you hang out with, which really don't represent the circle of people that represent the majority of our students, and we're one of the only fields that all the decisions that are made for us are made by people who have no idea what we do every single day. They just they don't and you're right.

Speaker 1: 33:22

It's a little frustrating.

Speaker 2: 33:23

Oh, it's very, very frustrating. I mean, I'm very honest on the podcast when I say you know, we have a choice, which is to continue to do what you're doing and fight the good fight, or there's the other side, which is me, where I was like I am done. I do not see this changing in a way that I can find to continue on this path acceptable. So now I do a podcast instead, but you know. So what do you think if you had to narrow down the main things? We've just talked about one of them, which is the policymakers not being part of the, for well, they're, they're just not as informed on what needs to happen. So they, they, they have different stakes in the game than educators, students and families do. So that's definitely fueling burnout on a lot of different areas. But what else do you think is fueling burnout among administrators? Special education what do you think?

Speaker 1: 34:30

I think a lack of resources is a big thing and a lack of support, lack of support. I feel like people don't feel supported and they don't feel supported Even if you have an amazing administrator, an amazing administrative team that supports your education team, you're not supported outside of there. So I can remember sitting in meetings. I was on some committee, not that I wanted to be. I was asked to be at my last job where they talked about, you know, teacher turnover rate and how do we attract educators to the field of education, and my same answers were I gave the same two answers so often that they said, joe, don't answer, we know what you're going to say, you know. And my two things were one pay them more, pay them a fair salary for what they do. These people are getting the hell kicked out of them and they need to have a salary that compensates for what they do. And they also need to be respected. They need to be respected by the people in their field, by the people outside of their field, by the people in their community. We need to raise the level of respect. And I explained to them the first time. I said look if I was a freshman in college again and I said you know, god, I really want to be an educator. I really want to be a teacher. I'm very passionate about working with kids.

Speaker 1: 35:47

And I sat down with somebody who was just going to be a straight shooter with me and they said okay, well, here's the deal You're probably only going to make. You know this was based on when I started teaching. You know about about $26,000, $27,000 a year. You're going to have to go back and get your master's. By the way, nobody's going to pay for that, so you're going to have to take out student loans to do that. You're also going to have to continue education even after your master's, which means you're going to have to take classes and professional developments Some of those we may pay for, some of those we may not. You'll have to pay for it out of pocket and if and you stick with it and you stay in the classroom and about, you know 15 years, you might make, you know $70,000 and you know you're going to have to work tirelessly and and and just be torn apart by, you know, the kids and the.

Speaker 1: 36:32

The area you work in is going to be a lot of stress, can be a lot of uh days where you go home and you cry and you know, but you know you can do this. And then if I said, well, what if I just majored in like finance or business? And they'd say, okay, well, you'll need a bachelor's degree, you probably won't have to go back and get a master's in most areas and if you do, typically your company would pay for that because they want you to have it. You'll probably start off making $65,000, $70,000 a year. There will be stress, but it'll be a lot different stress. People probably won't be yelling and screaming at you or assaulting you and things like that. You'll have a lot of opportunity for growth and movement.

Speaker 1: 37:06

If you don't like where you're at, there's probably a hundred different places you can go. What would appeal to me to go into education? Answer, at the end of the day, all these things you're wanting to do, like what if we gave them this or incentivize it? How about you pay them more, pay them a fair salary for what they do and change, push, change in culture to accept them as professional people?

Speaker 1: 37:33

I've been to places where you know when I tell people what I do and you know, like higher up sort of people, and I say, well, you know I'm an educator and they're like, oh, that's cool, wow, and I'm like God, that's so degrading. You know that you think that that's like my cute little job, like I'm educating your child, so there's just there's not a lot of love and respect. Or or you get the typical like, oh, I could never do that, what a pain in the ass that I do that every day. Well, I do do that every day and it's sad that you probably make $10,000 more than me and are less educated and have to, and you know that my job is really hard. So I think that's, you know, as a culture we've got to change education to.

Speaker 2: 38:16

If you go overseas, you know educators are very it's a very honorable job, it's a very respected job, but just here in the United States, it's kind of like, you know, teachers Well, and I think the teachers are viewed as someone that, like we, we are public servants in the worst possible way, like the public thinks that we are its servants to order about and we're not treated like we have a professional knowledge base. That's one thing I've noticed since I've been here in Portugal, and teachers have issues here and they are not paid well here. However, the public at large tends to, in my opinion, have a different level of respect for the educators. You don't question a lot about what's going on in the classroom because you assume that the teacher is a qualified professional to be teaching your child. It's rather they kind of tell us what to do. You know the teachers do, which was really kind of a mind shift for me. But I think I agree with everything that you are saying. I think that teachers go, or not just teachers.

Speaker 2: 39:26

Educators tend to go into education, in my opinion, for two main reasons. One that I hear the most they had family members that were educators, so they grew up. They had family members that were educators, so they grew up sharing that value, knowing that this was a value and something they wanted to participate in. And the second reason is is because something's probably happened to them that made them feel like they could be a change maker, because probably change happened for them because of the school system. So those, I mean these, are the reasons people go into it. It's not for the pay, it's not God, not for the summer's off, because they're getting shorter and shorter and I think teachers need them more and more.

Speaker 1: 40:31

It really is because we have a passion, either for education itself or a passion for helping people. Because you guys have a story and I find it 90% of the time, it's true. Most of them are here because they have a story. They have some sort of trauma or some sort of thing that they went through that made them want to help people that they think of as like me. I want to help kids like me. I want to work with kids that might go through with what I've gone through, and even when I talk to a lot of therapists, I always tell them you know, a lot of times therapists either needed therapy or went to therapy and that's why they became a therapist and more often than not, I get the yeah, I totally got into this because of my own experiences and things like so, yeah, they have a story, I agree. Yeah, yeah, they have a story, I agree.

Speaker 2: 41:22

Yeah, no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 41:35

I think I mean the first thing I would do is I would increase funding tenfold. I think that having teachers in classrooms with 25 kids is ridiculous. So I would spend a lot more money on remodeling schools and rebuilding schools, but also paying teachers more so that they have more space and more room, more space and more room. The town I'm in now we have like seven schools that are shut down. They're just shut down, they just consolidate and say, okay, we can do 30 kids in one school in one room, because that way we save money on that building maintenance and all of the materials. So I think I would overfund education. But I would also want to monitor that funding because a lot of times it doesn't filter down the way it should. It goes in pockets that don't need to be lined and it goes to services that don't need to be beefed up. So I would definitely want that looked at and make sure that it's going to the classrooms, to the kids and to the educators, the classrooms to the kids and to the educators. And then I would just start a whole I don't know a whole push socially that to respect teachers and treat them better. And you know, just try to make a social movement where you know these guys are professionals, they, you, are entrusting your child with them for six to eight hours a day, five days a week, almost 12 months out of the year, depends on where you live but yet you can't. You can entrust your most precious gift, your child, with this human being, but you can't treat that human being, you know, with decency. It just doesn't make any sense to me. So I think that would be a big push.

Speaker 1: 43:19

But being able to get teachers what they want, I think you know I've said no to teachers sometimes because I know what they want won't work and I have to explain like I get that you want these. But I can explain to you why. I think we could go a different route, because I've seen these and I know that they don't work. They look really great on the surface but they're just not effective. But when we research that, we found that these work better, are you open to those? So what do you need? Have you done some research on which ones you think will work best for your classroom? Because I'm not going to doubt you, I'm going to trust you Because if you're the English teacher and you say I want these books for my English classroom. You're the English teacher. I have to trust you on that. So if you can come to me and say I need these books and this is what I'm going to do with them, I would love to be able to always say, then let's do it and let's take those old ones and find somewhere to you know, get them to use or do something with those.

Speaker 1: 44:25

But I think having that ability to just say yes to teachers you know, I need an aid in my classroom, I need an additional parapro and for us to look at like, well, budget says, you know, you know, then maybe you do you need an additional body in your classroom I would love to be able to, for all of us to just say, well then, let's do it, let's advertise, let's find the right person and let's get them in here. You know, I think that would be the biggest thing is to to increase that funding and stop scrutinizing what we're doing. Gosh, we, we could do a whole nother podcast on test scores and people trying to analyze how how well we do in comparison with other people Cause it's just and people trying to analyze how well we do in comparison with other people, because it's just.

Speaker 2: 45:02

That's a fraud system, in my opinion. Yes, it is.

Speaker 1: 45:03

Yes, it is so just trusting that your kid is getting an education and your teachers are doing the best with what they have. And test scores don't mean a single solitary thing. They're the most ridiculous measurement of academic achievement that's ever been created. But just being able to turn teachers into a professional world.

Speaker 2: 45:24

Well, I'll put my plug in here. I say that the only person that gets to see the test score is the teacher. So let's go ahead, let's test them, but nobody gets to see that score except the teacher, because they're the ones that need to find out if what they're doing is working. Yeah they're the ones that need to find out if what they're doing is working.

Speaker 1: 45:43

Yeah, they're the ones that have to look at that and say, wow, we've got some gaps here. But when we let the public look at it and all these people who don't have that teacher background look at it, then they analyze it in a completely different way. They look at it as failure or success, when that's not what that is.

Speaker 2: 45:59

I agree, I agree.

Speaker 2: 46:01

Well, you know, I think that things like your book could potentially be leveling things as well, because a lot of what's going on right now in classrooms is behavior related, that you have a student who's diagnosed or undiagnosed with something and they can't regulate, and the teacher is spending a lot of time with that kiddo.

Speaker 2: 46:23

So I do think that there are other resources that could be brought in, but even in that case, like you said, to be able to go and say, hey, I could use an extra body in here because this kiddo's having some regulation issues and they need somebody that they can go for a walk with when they need to, rather than. You know, I can't do that as the classroom teacher. Unfortunately, as you alluded to, though, I think there will be less funding rather than more, sooner rather than later. So, anyway, there are other things that you're doing that can also potentially, you know, just be some of those resources. So we've got your book. Can you tell us a little bit about your? I'd like you to speak about the book, kind of give us an idea of how it's set up and how it can be used, and then also your organization Therapeutic Perspectives and then also your organization therapeutic perspectives.

Speaker 1: 47:27

So when I wrote the book, I wrote it to be designed to be read by teachers or administrators, but also social workers and you know SAS workers, people who work with kids who are in crisis, or kids who've been labeled, as you know, difficult kids or, as the friend of mine who wrote the foreword to my book you know, disenfranchised youth is what he calls them and so I tried to keep it simple. There's not a lot of loaded language and I feel like that was okay. I get a lot of feedback that you know. Gosh, it's kind of an easy read and instead of taking that as you know, it's a I'm a simpleton who wrote an easy book I take it as well it should be. It's supposed to be something that's easy for you to read that, and I also set it up to be like a book study. So there's little things in there for you to do. If you want to do it with a team to look at like, oh look, this whole part. It wants us to do this little breakout and exploration thing.

Speaker 1: 48:20

But I started off with, you know, the first part of it is just understanding. So when I sat down with this doctor and my therapist friend. We kind of narrowed down what we think are, you know, the most common diagnosed mental health disorders in schools and we tried to break that down first, like get an understanding, what does ADHD look like and how do you compensate and how do you work with students that have ADHD? And so, starting off with giving you that foundation I know that there's like two more I'd like to add to that if I do a revision but starting off with that and then understanding trauma, and then understanding brain development in kind of a simplified way and then understanding you know what it's like to do interventions with those kids and also restorative practices. I think it's interesting. Restorative practices is like the big buzzword now and I thought, you know, when I was in the basement back in the corner and told to not bother anybody with my 25 behavior kids, we were doing restorative practices. Back then we were trying to build a community because I thought if I can get the kids to buy into my classroom and buy into my school, then they have something that is there for them, they have like another little family. And then all of a sudden it became a big deal and I was like I've been doing this for like 20 years and now it's like a thing that's just so strange that why weren't we doing these things before? So I definitely tried to set it up. So it's scaffolds, it builds everything, builds off off the other thing and easy to read with the projects in there.

Speaker 1: 49:51

And then therapeutic perspectives is my LLC. That's where I go and I do consulting and speaking. You know I go to schools and do training for their teachers, and even professional development looks different over the last few years Because in a lot of the areas that I work at they can't make teachers do professional development, so they have to offer like five different sessions and allow them to choose rather than forcing them to go to one, which I think is great, and so that's been kind of fun to go in and do some professional development. But that's a political world as well. They they often go with like their go-to person or you know they want to take somebody who works for like a large corporation. So you know, getting a toe in that door, not even a toenail on that door, is kind of difficult because they're like well, who are you? You're just a guy who wrote a book. We could get Gary, who's from the Center for you know, youth Advocacy, which is a national center, and he's one of their trainers. I'm like, well, has Gary ever been a teacher? He was for like five years. Like, ok, how long ago was Gary a teacher? It's been like 15 years, but he's got all these trainings that he took online to make him a trainer. Like, oh, I mean, I'm sure that makes Gary a qualified trainer, but that doesn't make Gary a guy that can understand the questions your teachers are going to ask. So that's what I do.

Speaker 1: 51:13

I try to do a lot of professional development and every once in a while people are crazy enough to hire me to keynote speak for 60 minutes or so. I love doing conference sessions. I think that's probably one of the most passionate things, just because you've got a couple hundred or a couple thousand people there and you just get to meet so many different people and talk to so many different minds and process what are very similar problems. And I think that's what's amazing is you bring all these educators together and especially, you know when you do like a national thing and they're from all these different States and you're like, yeah, we all have the same problem. Um, none of us are terminally unique. We all have the same problem, um, but that's what. What, uh, therapeutic perspectives does.

Speaker 1: 51:57

And then I do some charitable stuff too. I'll donate to things. And then also, I just paid for a table for a trivia night that went to benefit the homeless and brought in some we were terrible at trivia, by the way, I thought we would. I brought in some teachers with me and I was like, well, we're going to kick butt because we're all teachers and we got destroyed. We weren't the worst team, but we by far were not the best. But but I try to do some things like that as well.

Speaker 2: 52:28

Well, speaking to your trivia thing, I hate when people say, oh, come, come do this, you're a teacher, we need you on our team, boy, that's a lot of pressure. Or for me it's like, oh, this whole category is in literature. We know you have your master's in English and I'm like, oh, boy, okay, I do, but I don't know every great literary work there is and I'm more of a compositionist than a literary person. So, yes, tons of pressure. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:02

I think can we ask some questions about trauma, brain development, IEPs yes, or how the school system works as a whole.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Let's do that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:12

I'm pretty good at 80s and 90s music. I'll take you Me too.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Me too. I'm right there with you. So you know one of the things that you said in your questionnaire and for our listeners, anybody who comes on the podcast has to fill out a questionnaire. It's just so I can go back and kind of think about some things that I want to talk to them about. And something you said in there really struck me, so I'm going to talk a little bit, or I'm going to have you talk a little bit about it. You said that you approach all people your staff, I'm assuming your family, your friends, your students everyone in the same way, with patience and an open mind. And in the world of education we have a lot of educators who are really burned out. In what ways do you think they need to be seen? With patience and an open mind? How can we use this philosophy of yours to better support our colleagues?

Speaker 1: 54:14

I think whenever people come to me with any kind of problem or anything that they need, my immediately, one of my first thoughts is this has nothing to do with you, joe. Nothing, it's not about you. This is a them thing, and for you to make it about you isn't fair. You need to make it about them because it's you know, five minutes before they came to you, these weren't thoughts or ideas or things that you were processing. But now they are, and what you're processing is their needs and what they need. And so just being patient and listening and trying to, you know, um, do that, you know active listening, I? It's funny that that's like a whole thing. Now I feel like people should just be good listeners, but, you know, asking questions and trying to understand where they're coming from, and being patient, because I'm going to have opinions and thoughts and I'm going to have knee jerk reactions sometimes. Step back, it's not about you, it's not about your reaction. This is something that they're feeling and that they're going through, and if they feel it, then it's valid. So how do I step back? Be patient, take a friendly approach and figure out what can I do to meet your need or how can I walk you through the idea that we can't meet your need just because it's just an unmeetable thing, but get you to a place where you feel like maybe we can't meet your need just because it's just an unmeetable thing, but get you to a place where you feel like maybe we've partially met that need or you have an understanding of why, in this moment in time, we can't do that. I tell our teachers our kids get an endless supply of dignity and respect every day. They get a million resets every morning at 8 am and adults get that too. We don't just get to be therapeutic and understanding and patient with our children. We have to do that with each other as well, and I think I talk about it in my book.

Speaker 1: 56:13

When I first started learning about de-escalation and therapeutic approaches, I was a bouncer at a bar in college and so I would just apply these techniques to drunk grown men. We didn't typically have a lot of girls that got out of control. They behave a lot better guys and my boss would come up to me and he's like what the hell just happened? Those guys were getting ready to fight. You went over and intervened, pulled them apart. Now they're hugging and shaking your hand and I'm like, yeah, we did a little conflict resolution and we all agreed that they probably shouldn't come back until next week. And they agree to that, that they're not kicked out forever, but they're going to refocus and do things better. And you know, we've got a game plan for when they come back next week. And he goes that's, that's weird. And I was like it's not.

Speaker 1: 57:01

I said it's just being patient and understanding with all the people, even the people that are a little bit intoxicated. You know you can moderately rationalize with them a little bit. But so I think that's when it just occurred to me that, gosh, if we just treat all people with patience and respect and understand that their need is a need for them and it has nothing to do with me, and give them dignity and respect to have a place to have a voice and then walk with them through it rather than shove them through it, it makes a huge difference and it gets people to, you know, be more comfortable, continue to come to me or, you know, come to their leadership team or whoever you know, come to their leadership team or whoever they need with those problems. Because as soon as I downplay that and I squash it and I make it like it's nothing, because it's nothing to me, then that trust is gone, that faith is gone, that connection is lost and it can be rebuilt, but it takes twice the time. So putting in that work now and understanding, being able to mentally step back and say, okay, this has nothing to do with me Right now, is where I need to allow them some dignity, be patient and be understanding and let's walk through this together. I think all people need that all the time and if we could all do that, it would be a whole different world.

Speaker 1: 58:16

And I'm not perfect. I mean I, you know, outside of school there's some times where I'm just like you know what, not right now. I just I can't. But those are people that you know. I've been married for almost 30 years and so there are times where I can tell my wife I just hold on, you got to give me some time, but I've got a 30 year relationship with her and she can look at me and go, okay, he's not in the right headspace. My kids are all in their twenties. I can do that now a lot more with them. When they come to me with things, I'm like hold on, I have to process what you're telling me. Give me a minute to step back. I don't have to deal with this in the moment, but I've already built that loving relationship with them for over 20 years, so they know that there's a little. You know we can give each other some grace.

Speaker 2: 58:56

But you know, all those things that you're talking about open mind, dignity, respect, patience, understanding none of those coexist with judgment, and I do think that a lot of times, when we're talking about our colleagues or we are interacting with our students, that tends to be and it probably is that lens of self that we're using where we immediately go to judgment. Why are you doing this? Now You're interrupting my math lesson, or if you would come into work a half an hour early, you wouldn't be behind and you wouldn't be so burnt out. And now you're in here complaining on my planned time. You've hit on something there that I it really really struck me when you said the open mind, patience and an open mind, and I thought you know, boy, we could all use more of that in the world, and definitely in education. So our time is just about done. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about before we go?

Speaker 1: 1:00:00

Gosh, I can't think of anything. I mean there's. You know you have to stop me because I'll just keep talking forever. But no, I think you know people really got to just work on, you know, treating teachers better and we've got to find a way to fix the system, because the people aren't broken, the system is, and you know systems can be fixed. There's all kind of logistic things that we can do to systems to change them and rewire them and make them different, but I think the first step is to allow educators to have a voice that's heard and that's respected, because right now they're just like, oh, they're just a bunch of people crying and whining and bitching about their job all the time. Well, there's a reason for that, but you listen to what they're crying and whining and bitching about and try to address those things. You know it boggles my mind that this is our future. Our kids are our future. They're the youth. They're going to eventually be the adults that are running around the streets and working jobs and doing all the things that we do. We should probably invest in that a little bit more, and I know that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

I think you know I have traveled, you know I've been to a lot of different countries and I think in the US we really struggle to take care of our elderly and to take care of our young. It's the people in the middle that we do a whole bunch of stuff for, but we don't do a lot for the kids and we don't do a lot for you know, once you reach a certain age and you get old, we're just like we're done with. You go sit somewhere and, you know, rust away all that wisdom, all that knowledge. We're just thrown away. And then the youth we just kind of were like, you know, they just need to figure it out. Well, they have to be that middle portion that you focus on. At some point they're going to move into that middle portion, don't you want that middle portion to be the best? You know, 30 years you can get out of the human. Because that's what we're looking at. We're looking to get the best 30 years out of that person.

Speaker 2: 1:01:53

And somebody's got to teach them right. I mean somebody's got to teach them right, I mean somebody's got to teach them how to do all the things. So when we're letting them figure it out, they're not.

Speaker 1: 1:02:09

Yeah, exactly, so that would be. My big thing is, you know, it's not the people, it's the system. We've got so many passionate, loving, incredibly intelligent educators out there that have, I mean, just an endless supply of contributions to make to education, if we just let them have a voice.

Speaker 2: 1:02:24

I love that, Joe. You can find all of Joe's information on today's show notes. There's going to be a link to his book and his website and I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:02:40

Thank you, I appreciate it. It's been fun. I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2: 1:02:50

Today's episode was produced and edited by me. The theme music is by Otis McDonald featuring Joni Enes. If you know someone who might enjoy these conversations, please share the podcast episodes as much and as often as you can. It's as simple as copying the link you used to access today's episode and sending it in a message or sharing it on social media. I'm a small, independent operation and your shares broaden our audience. Perhaps you or someone you know will be inspired to talk about teacher burnout. If you would like to get your voice on my podcast, contact me via the link on my webpage taughtbuzzsproutcom. Coach, speaker and author Rashid Ogunlaro said it may take many voices for people to hear the same message. Join me in being one of the many voices rising up to get the message out around educator burnout.

Speaker 2: 1:03:45

This is Melissa LaFleur. Thank you for listening to taught the podcast. I have an important reminder. Slash disclaimer to share. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer or company. Content provided on this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as professional advice. We encourage you to do your own research and consult with qualified professionals before making any decisions based on the information discussed in this or any other episode. Additionally, any opinions or statements made during the podcast are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company or individual Listener. Discretion is advised. Thank you for tuning in.