Leaders Who Listen: How Great Management Mitigates Teacher Burnout with guest Snezana Djuric

Have you ever wondered why so many passionate, dedicated professionals across industries eventually burn out? The answer may lie not in individual failings but in our workplace systems and leadership structures.

In this conversation with Snezana Djuric, a globally experienced executive coach and leadership trainer, we uncover the universal challenges that professionals face regardless of country or industry. Drawing from her background in education, linguistics, and over a decade leading cross-cultural teams in the IT and gaming sectors, Snezana brings unique insights into what truly makes workplaces thrive or deteriorate.

Whether you're a leader seeking to create healthier team environments or someone struggling with workplace stress, this episode offers both validation and actionable approaches to addressing burnout at multiple levels.

Connect with Snezana on Linkedin 

Learn More by visiting her website at snowation.com

Check Out Snezana's Resources:

Her Blog (especially latest posts about developing various leadership skills):
LinkedIn Newsletter- 2 Parts on Delegating. Part 1 & Part 2

Chapters

• 0:09 Introducing the Burnout Crisis
• 0:34 Meet Snezana Juric: Global Leadership Coach
• 2:49 From Teaching to Leadership: Snezana's Journey
• 8:10 Key Traits of Great Leaders
• 14:54 Handling Burnout in Education
• 24:29 Creating Supportive Communities for Leaders
• 41:29 Global Factors Driving Workplace Burnout
• 51:33 Change Must Flow Both Ways

Transcript

Amy Schamberg: 0:09

Music. Across the globe, educators are burnt out. Research shows that chronic stress and burnout harms teachers' health, drives high turnover and disrupts student learning. It's time to stop treating burnout like a personal failing and start addressing the systems, structures and root causes that are burning educators out in the first place. Hi everyone, I'm Amy Schamberg and welcome to Season 2 of TAUGHT, where we are shifting the conversation from stories to solutions and rethinking what workplace wellness and education really means. Hello and welcome back to TAUT.

Amy Schamberg: 0:57

Today's episode is a special treat because joining us all the way from Serbia is Snezana Djuric, an ICF certified executive coach and leadership trainer with deep experience leading and developing high-performing teams across cultures and industries and in a world where burnout, leadership challenges and workplace well-being are shared struggles across borders. Her global perspective adds an invaluable layer to the conversation. Snezana holds a BA in education and a master's in linguistics, and she spent over a decade in leadership roles in the IT and gaming industry, where she led cross-functional and cross-cultural teams. She eventually founded her own coaching and training practice, where she now works with executives and decision makers to cultivate a growth mindset for themselves, their teams and their organization. As a trainer, she helps leadership and management teams strengthen essential skills like communication, delegation and organizational planning to build high-performing, people-centered workplaces. Susana, welcome to TAUT. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show and I know that our listeners will really appreciate the experience that you bring and the global lens that you bring. I'm really looking forward to learning from your experiences today.

Snezana Djuric: 2:16

Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here. And thank you for I know it's my bio. But thank you for the kind words. It sounds pretty good.

Amy Schamberg: 2:29

Oh, yeah, I know it's very impressive and I know that our listeners will really appreciate the perspective and experience that you bring today. So I'm really looking forward to learning from you. But I had to say, your career path spans some really interesting industries and I'd love to start yeah, I'd love to start just by hearing your story and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your journey and how it all unfolded. How did you get to where you are right now?

Snezana Djuric: 2:51

Yeah, I'll start way back and speed through things, but you know I've always been passionate about teaching, and when I say always, I literally mean I think I was four years old when I learned, you know we had we would take a couple of papers out of a notebook and put it on a door and pretend it's a you know blackboard or whiteboard nowadays and so write on it and teach. And for me it's always been. I've always been passionate about how we learn things and you know that kind of got me into the whole teaching career or education. So it's always been about how we learn, how we grow, why certain people learn a certain way and others learn a different way, why some people struggle to learn in general and I'm not talking about learning disabilities, just learning in general. We're all very different when it comes to how we acquire information and how we retain that information, and so that got me into education and teaching and my passion at the time was teaching at the university because, you know I figured if there's a mind to shape, that would be a good time because you know, by the time we get to university we know enough and yet not enough, so that there's something we can learn and grow and develop. However, I didn't go down that path, but I did do a lot of student teaching as I was finishing my bachelor's.

Snezana Djuric: 4:10

And then I got into management during my master's studies and that's where my management career took off and I saw that as an opportunity to still kind of teach and educate, but in a different way, because as a manager you're helping your teammates really grow and develop and learn. And so that was my opportunity to help to still educate, but maybe from a different perspective. And then, of course, you know, I invested a lot in my own learning and growth and I was lucky enough at the early, very early start of my career to have a great leader or a great manager who taught me many, many things. And you know, with her in my mind, I've always been passionate about okay, how can I now transfer what I've learned to other people? Because I wanted to be the kind of leader that you would feel comfortable with, that you would feel welcome to share anything and you wouldn't be judged.

Snezana Djuric: 5:02

And then, slowly, as I transitioned into, well, the question of what do I do next, I started coaching training and that really got me curious about okay. So you know, I learned what coaching is. Icf has their own way of going about things and they have their own principles and ethics, which I really appreciated and liked. And it's more like you know, as a coach you have the supporting role to somebody's growth, rather than different from mentoring where you tell people how to go about things and what to do. And so that got me interested and curious about whether coaching would be the next step and then what that would look like.

Snezana Djuric: 5:40

And then I started my own practice, which focused on coaching and training, because training has always been a part of who I was and who I am, and then coaching kind of was an add on to it. So you know, that's maybe 20 years in a nutshell, but yes, so you're right, you know I was in education, I was in gaming and IT and IT, and as a coach I've worked really with any industry you can think of, from software and development, which is where you know my roots were professionally, but also to construction, real estate, you name it, e-commerce I think you know any industry you can think of. I've probably worked with someone from it.

Amy Schamberg: 6:22

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that history and I can see this theme. You know, like you said, you started when you were young. You've always been interested in knowing how people learn and then that kind of evolved into teaching at the university to coaching, which is really helping people teach themselves right, Like pull the answers out of themselves and then training and then interwoven throughout all of that is your passion for leadership and being a good leader yourself and then helping your clients and those that you work with rise up and become better leaders as well.

Snezana Djuric: 6:57

Yeah, yeah, Cause we all you know, we, we rarely remember a workplace itself, like you know, but we do remember the people we work with, especially your superiors.

Snezana Djuric: 7:06

So your managers your team leads. And if you have, especially as you're starting your career, if you have a leader who's good in the sense of they know what they're doing, they're there to help you, to support you, to guide you, that leaves such a huge mark on your career later on. And likewise, you know if you work with a bad manager, then that leaves that kind of sore I don't know sour aftertaste, and then you're always very cautious and you're always very careful. You know, is this person going to be the same? So how do I know how to build trust in an organization? So it's really the role of a leader is so important in our professional growth and, from my experience personally, but also professionally, we don't nearly pay enough attention to how to educating those leaders, because you know it's not your fault, you don't know how to lead, but you can learn it.

Snezana Djuric: 8:00

And we don't invest enough time, energy, knowledge into educating these people who are supposed to help the organization grow.

Amy Schamberg: 8:09

I think that's such an important component because, like you said, we all can think back to a great manager, a great boss and, on the flip side, one that made our lives miserable, and I think that it's easy to kind of just blame the leader or blame the boss. But what you said is really important If they haven't received the proper training themselves on how to manage the stress and the overwhelm and everything that's placed upon them and know how to work with people because there are a lot of important people skills involved in being a leader it's like they too are set up to fail right?

Snezana Djuric: 8:53

Yep, yeah, absolutely. I always say you know, 80% of leadership is people management and then the 20% is projects, goals and everything else, because you can learn. Those are so easy to learn compared to learning how to work with people and how to truly manage them or lead them, in the sense of understanding their goals, how they fit into the company goals, how the company you know. How are you going to motivate them to keep going If they're stressed? How do you help them? How do you prevent certain things? How do you create that initial trust?

Snezana Djuric: 9:26

As you're starting a new team, for me, one of the biggest challenges was how do I create trust with the people who are more senior to me. Position wise or experience wise leader, you will inevitably work with people who have more experience with you than you. So how do you go about that? How do you not seem arrogant, but how do you stay, I guess, authority, but in a good sense of that word. And then how do you lead with integrity, so to speak, with these people who have so much more knowledge than you do, and they don't necessarily have to have older in age, but just lots more experience. And so that's been my struggle how do I create that balance. So there's so much about people when it comes to leadership, and we do teach everyone the hard skills in the sense of leading projects, goals, kpis, but people management takes time.

Amy Schamberg: 10:26

Mm-hmm, absolutely the emotional intelligence, the EQ part of the equation. So then, what's the answer to those questions? I'm so curious. So this has been driving your work and I'm sure we'll explore more of this today, but what are some of the key components that make a good leader versus a not?

Snezana Djuric: 10:49

good leader. Yeah, this is my personal opinion, so don't hold me against any research. Of course there's so much research done on this topic and part of it is very subjective. Of course you know it's how we get along with the person. But some of the traits that we can and skills that we can develop, first and foremost, as you said, emotional intelligence. So being able to see, if I'm talking to you and I notice there's a shift in your emotions, there's a shift in your behavior, or just you know the way you look today, it's a very natural thing to ask hey, I notice you're distant, is everything okay? Or hey, you seem super happy today. How are things going? You know, would you like to share? So it doesn't necessarily have to be a negative emotion that you notice, but even noticing that somebody is super cheerful or chirpy, you know maybe something could happen and you allow them to share that. So developing that emotional intelligence is really important and leaders who know how to address emotions tend to be rated highly on a list of good or great leaders. Another thing is leaders who listen. So if I don't know, if you've been around people who you have a conversation with them and after that conversation you feel like, wow, that person is amazing, but you did most of the talking, that's right. What they do is they really become really good at asking questions and allowing you the space and time to answer, to think things through. They seem genuinely interested in what you have to share. So that curiosity is what marks a good leader as well.

Snezana Djuric: 12:29

And, of course, getting things done. Yes, in the sense of knowing how to communicate the deadlines. And let's be real in the business world, some deadlines are just not right, but you have to motivate your team to get as much done as possible, or even to meet that crazy deadline, and so, in those situations, communication skills are key, they're essential. So you can go ahead and say, well, you need to do it, I don't care what it takes, just get it done.

Snezana Djuric: 13:01

Some people may be motivated by that, but most are going to feel very frustrated. But if you said look guys, I know this is, it's a challenging thing, it's, it seems, like a crazy deadline. However, this is really important for our team, our project, our business to move forward, and I would highly appreciate it. I know it'll take over time, I know it'll take, you know, time away from your family, whatever, but you're showing that you understand what they're going to go through and you're going to be there with them more most likely. So even the way we communicate certain messages is what sets good leaders apart, because we can always be the authority and say do it, that's right.

Amy Schamberg: 13:46

Technically, you have that power but Right, and as you're saying this, I'm thinking through all of the experiences I've had over the course of my career and I think that some of the best experiences I've had with leadership don't necessarily correspond to the easiest job that I've had. Right, and but exactly what you said, explaining the reasoning behind something or saying I know this, this really is not ideal right now, but this is what we've got to do.

Amy Schamberg: 14:16

This is why and let's figure out how to navigate this together that introduction of humanity, I think, goes a long way in just building rapport.

Snezana Djuric: 14:28

I was going to say even you know sometimes, because you know, sometimes we do boring tasks, everybody has tasks that they don't like or they find, you know, leave for the last moment. I've had my teammates come and say why do I always have to do this boring task? And I said one, you don't always have to do it, everybody does. And two, I know it's boring, but you know how. How can you make it digestible? How can, what can you do to just say, okay, it is what it is, but I'll do it because you know it's part of my to-do list, or you know I have to. Usually those are like reports. Or maybe you know you have to clock in certain things or things like that, where people you don't, you don't get to involve your intelligence or or your higher thinking that much and so, but even they're supporting them and saying look, I know, I know I have things that I don't like doing, but it's just part of the job. So sometimes we really love it and we're super energized and excited. Sometimes we just have to do things that have to be done and that's it. But really that human approach, that social and emotional intelligence in the conversation, is really really important.

Snezana Djuric: 15:36

And again listening. So how do I share things with you when I come to you as my team leader or a manager or whatever? Am I excited sharing this thing with you? Am I worried? Am I just what am I telling you really? And then from there, so you know that kind of reflecting back, as you did with me, you know summarizing, so you know. So what you're saying really is X Y Z right, did I get that right? But it's such a you know small thing in're saying really is X, y Z right, did I get that right? But it's such a you know small thing in communication, but it's so important because that you give yourself the opportunity, one, to check your understanding. So did you really understand what the person was telling you? And two, you allow them to correct you if they didn't, if you didn't hear things the right way, or maybe it allows them to correct themselves if it seems like they didn't express the things they wanted to. So you know that small thing can mean so much.

Snezana Djuric: 16:31

But great leaders know how to listen, they know how to stop, they know how to listen, they know how to ask, they know they're curious, genuinely curious, about what's going on with you as a person. Sometimes you know people you know personally and so you're curious genuinely curious about what's going on with you as a person. Sometimes you know people you know personally and so you're curious with that as well. But not necessarily you can make the relationship strictly professional and still be very curious Because your goal as a leader is to have these people grow. I recently read somewhere you're not a leader until you create leaders, that create leaders, or something like that. So you really have to know how to transfer not only to lead by example, but to transfer that so people know how to take that and share it with the next person.

Amy Schamberg: 17:17

Yes, and I would imagine that there are a lot of folks out there leaders or aspiring leaders who are that person, by nature, true, who genuinely cares about others and has strong social and emotional skills. But my question now is what about the ones that maybe don't have the innate ability and don't see the value in developing it?

Snezana Djuric: 17:50

It's a challenge. First and foremost, I would say to those people what do you care about? So what is it that it's important for you? And you can go from that place so say you really care about results? Okay, great. What does it take for people to produce good results? And then, okay, so for them to produce good results, maybe they need to have a good night's sleep, they need to have clarity on their tasks, they need to. So you go backwards Okay, this is what I want, what do I need? What do people need to get me what I want? Right. And then, okay, where in their journey can I participate? And so you don't. I think it's even worse if you're trying to be interested and you're not. Generally you don't care. I think that comes across way off than you just not even caring. So if that's not your strength, fine, find what it is. And then how can you help people get there?

Amy Schamberg: 18:52

Yeah, yeah, you know, and I think about the field of education, and it was when you were talking about all of the tasks that you know we don't like to do and we have to, I think, especially in the special education world. So many reports and so much paperwork and admin, that's like sometimes you feel like gosh. If I just didn't have to do all of this paperwork, I could actually work with kids and help students meet their goals, right. But you know, I'm just curious when you think about the work that you've done with leaders and teams, what would you say to a leadership team or you know a manager who perhaps is noticing that their staff is becoming burnt out, right, well great thing you're noticing.

Snezana Djuric: 19:39

That's first.

Amy Schamberg: 19:41

Stuff. One good thing you're noticing, okay, or how about even back up from that. How could you help them begin to notice and acknowledge if that's happening, and what would you suggest that they do?

Snezana Djuric: 19:51

A very easily missed sign is when someone gets super excited about everything and I know this is not sounds like a positive and it usually is what's the problem? Sounds like a positive, and it usually is what's the problem. So somebody gets super excited about taking on more tasks, doing more projects, staying after hours. That's great, but think long term. So they're taking on too much work. Maybe they're handling it right now and that's great, but long term, how sustainable is that? Yeah, and so that would be the first sign.

Snezana Djuric: 20:23

If there's a person who gets super excited about something, fantastic, compliment, support them, but be there for them in the sense of okay, how are you doing? Are you handling this? Do you need more time? Do you need someone's help? Can you delegate? So really kind of checking in with them and saying, hey, this is fantastic and managers love when people take on more work, but then being mindful of, ok, let me follow up and follow through and see where this is going to lead. And if they're just really you know that's their new capacity or for some reason, they just feel very inspired to do the work, that's fantastic. But sometimes that's the first sign of us putting on too much on our plate because right now it feels doable.

Amy Schamberg: 21:08

That's so true. I say that all the time in my talks and in my workshops that burnout is sneaky, because when you're doing something that you love and that you're passionate about, at first it feels feels the long hours, the extra work, it feels energizing, it feels exciting, like you said it's, it seems like a choice. I'm choosing to do this and then, if you don't pay attention to the sustainability of that and you just keep pushing, at some point you do hit a wall and that's when it all starts.

Snezana Djuric: 21:42

So one thing that you can do as a leader, you can ask okay, are you aware how long this project is, or this task is, as in the sense of you do know you're going to be working on this for a couple of months, maybe a couple of weeks, thinking of your schedule, is this, you know, looking at your tasks that are coming up, the workload you have right now, is this doable in the long run? And even if they feel it is, and it becomes difficult, making sure that they can always share and that you can be there to help them. So if they get stuck, okay, all right, can we delegate? What can we do? So, not being in a sense of, well, I told you, so now you need to suck it up and do it. So that's the first sign somebody taking on too much.

Snezana Djuric: 22:27

By that time, you probably know your people to know what's too much for them or what seems like a big workload. If you notice that somebody's not taking breaks, they're not taking time off because they just love it and they're super excited to do the work Again, wonderful and amazing. But there's a reason we have weekends off. There's a reason we have I don't know eight hour days, because our brain, our body needs that rest more than our mind.

Amy Schamberg: 22:53

You know it's so interesting to hear you talk about not taking breaks, not taking time off and the length of a project, because, as I'm sure you know, in education here in the States anyway, school starts in in August and it goes until the end of May or June. That's the length of the project, and it also starts before the students go back, and you know so it's about a 10-month project and the work teachers are are stretched so thin. They have to be in school all day teaching students, but they also need to plan their lessons, so that has to be done outside of the school day. Then they have to grade all of the assignments. So I mean, I've talked to hundreds of teachers thousands maybe, at this point, and I do talk about boundaries, and you know what would it look like if you stopped doing work at this time? And the answer that I often hear is but I will be more stressed if I don't do this, because the work just keeps piling up and also, especially for the field of education.

Amy Schamberg: 23:54

Educators care deeply for students, right? I mean, you were a teacher, you were working in that field as well, and so you know no one really goes into the field of education because they want to become a millionaire. They go because they have a deep caring for teaching and learning and I think a lot of times that that deep sense of responsibility and care feed into this need to to continue working well past the end of the workday, the school day, into the weekends. I don't know how many leaders I've known, you know, over the course of my career that modeled good boundaries. I mean it's probably been like two, I mean, if I think about how many, I mean I've had leaders in education text me on holidays and ask me questions and sending emails on the weekend and expecting a reply on the weekend and think that it's a really tricky space to navigate. So I'm really interested in hearing your perspective on how we can change that.

Snezana Djuric: 25:04

It is extremely tricky because boundaries come from within. I mean, we all know, yes, we need to have working hours. Yes, we need to have separate personal professional life in the sense of these are my working hours, this is when I do my personal life. Yes, we don't take work home, but that's so much easier said than done. So I think we, on a logical level, intellectually, we do know what we can do and what good practice or good practices are, but it's really hard to implement them because of that feeling of what are they going to think of me if I don't do this? So I've worked with mostly individuals who work for bosses who you know they're ashamed to leave before the boss does, right. So you know they would stay two, three hours overtime at work because the boss or the manager is still there, right, that's a disaster, you know, creating that kind of culture and not the manager may or may not even be aware that they have that influence over people.

Snezana Djuric: 26:04

So in education I used to teach, but I also have a lot of cousins and aunts. My mom is a teacher, so I come from. I know what it feels like. Yes, absolutely, and that care, I think, maybe separating the two. So in education, I think I would really encourage teachers, any supporting staff, so anybody involved in the system, to think okay, where is the limit? So, yes, I can help, but where does it stop being my responsibility? Because, you know, my responsibility is to teach this kid. It's not my responsibility to for them. You know I'm I can't put the knowledge in their heads, right.

Snezana Djuric: 26:51

So it's. It's about how can I present the information, how can I? You know, do I play with them? Is it? Do I make it entertaining? Do I make it fun? Do so? What do I do to try and play? You know, like there's that model of nine different intelligences that we possess. Okay, can I touch on multiple types of intelligence and the way kids learn?

Snezana Djuric: 27:13

But then there's a point where it's like well, you know, I've, I've shown them the information. We played a game, we did exercises, they did their homework. We played a game, we did exercises, they did their homework. This is where my responsibility stops. They also have to do the work. That's right, and I know it's really easier said than done.

Snezana Djuric: 27:33

But if, as a teacher, if I can sit with myself, it's really from my. Okay. When am I starting to do more damage than help and we do. We start doing the damage when we do things for them in the sense of well, you know, let me, let me give you a hint. No, let them figure it out. And if you really see that they're they're struggling, okay, then help them out. But or I am, my health is suffering, my time is suffering because I am trying to maybe create a more entertaining class Fantastic, but have a limit. So you know, maybe I'm going to spend 30 minutes doing this, and if 30 in 30 minutes, whatever I create, that's going to be good enough for now, and then I'm going to go and teach it.

Amy Schamberg: 28:17

Yeah, I love that so much because, as I'm sure you know, a key personality trait of educators is perfectionism, and you know it can always be better to be on it.

Snezana Djuric: 28:29

I mean, you can always be better.

Amy Schamberg: 28:31

Right, but I think that what you just said of asking yourself where is the limit? You know, where does my responsibility end? How can I hold myself accountable to that limit? What is good enough? I also heard you talk about like just kind of finding creative ways to teach or to get the work done. Maybe you know, as you're talking about the nine different intelligences, what came to mind to me is each educator has their own strengths as well, and how could you build upon your own strengths to teach in a way that makes life 2% easier for you? And I do think that it's hard, though, with the, you know, finding the limit.

Amy Schamberg: 29:11

I also think about my work in mental health, and there were so many days where, you know, I needed to call child protective services because a student had disclosed abuse at home, or I needed to make an outside therapy referral because a student needed an escalation in care above and beyond what can be provided in the school. Or I needed to reach out to the student psychiatrist so that we can collaborate on continuity of care. All of these things that needed to take place after the school day, because during the school day, you are being pulled and working with the students in crisis. At that moment I think I asked myself when does it end? Where's the limit? Every single day and it didn't. And I remember having conversations with my husband when I would come home late, very late. I would say, well, if I didn't call, if I didn't make the call for this child to get support, nobody else would. And that's a burden that I think anybody in social services, mental health, school, mental health has felt deeply. And that's a really tough thing too, where I've had a leader who has embodied the traits that you described earlier, that kind of walks alongside and says, yeah, this is, this is really tough and how can I help, support you? Or just being a sounding board to hear the struggle and then also say you don't have to stay until 8pm every night, it is okay for you to go, you can leave.

Amy Schamberg: 30:43

I will remember there was a time that I went along with a student who needed to be admitted to the hospital, the psychiatric hospital and I was there with the student. I was waiting for the parents to arrive and the school day had ended and I was still with with the student and I just assumed I would be there indefinitely, like I had no idea where the parents were if they were coming. And I had just in my mind was like, well, I guess I'm just here. And the principal got a message to me and said, no, the school day ends at this time. And so you, you go home, you leave.

Amy Schamberg: 31:20

And it was just this release of pressure and stress, like, oh my gosh, you're telling me I can go home, really, really. And you know. It's like, yes, of course, the student is in a hospital now. They're safe, they're being taken care of. I was doing nothing, I was just sitting in a waiting room. Yeah, so I think that in instances where the work truly doesn't end it really doesn't end and where the work is impacting other people's lives, having a leader that can understand that and work with you to perhaps, you know, find a way to to feel maybe less dissonance about knowing that I also have a life and a family to take care of, and giving that permission to go tend to those other needs, I think is key.

Snezana Djuric: 32:11

Yeah, or just really hearing a word of appreciation. Sometimes you just have to stay, sometimes you have to have long days and that's fine. But then you know, having someone come to you tomorrow and say, hey, you know what, amy, I really appreciate what you did yesterday. Or you know, I know that that was at a cost of your family dinner that you had planned yesterday, but what you did meant so much for the student and, um, I know there's not much more I can say, but thank you for for doing that. Sometimes even hearing that is it's just okay. You know somebody's seeing these things and I know we don't, shouldn't look for external validation, but that's for me that's more like well, people pay attention. So you know I'm not doing this in vain. I mean I did it anyway, but it's nice to hear Good job.

Amy Schamberg: 32:57

I think that is huge and widely underutilized, and just that simple act of expressing appreciation in 30 seconds can go such a long way.

Snezana Djuric: 33:10

Oh, absolutely. There's a rule, and well, I guess it depends on what theory you follow. But when giving feedback, for example, we always say it's four to one, so four positive feedback pieces to one negative. In practice that never happens, but can you imagine what really would? Because that means I am paying attention to all the things you do, good and bad. The great ones, I'm going to say well done. This word that you used in this sentence was just the right one that I needed to hear. And then when there's something that needs to be corrected, I'm going to say it. But I'm also going to notice and say and point out the things that are well and even for, you know, high performers, high achievers that have this internal drive and motivation, people think well, you know, they're fine, yeah, but it's still nice to hear good job, even if it's just praise rather than feedback, Saying you know, well done, that was great. It just makes us feel good.

Amy Schamberg: 34:08

That's so funny that positive reinforcement is huge and as a school psychologist, I coach so many teachers on doing that very thing with their students, right yeah.

Snezana Djuric: 34:19

Well, who doesn't like to hear good job? Exactly Everybody does.

Amy Schamberg: 34:23

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we've talked about so much and I still have so many questions to ask you. I would love to hear more about I know that you have a mastermind group for women in management, and I would love to hear more about maybe some of the common themes or challenges you've seen among them and kind of what your work in that space has looked like.

Snezana Djuric: 34:46

Yeah. So that really started out of my lack of support when I was in management. It probably is, you know, nobody's fault. I also didn't reach out to too many, but I really didn't know too many managers in the area when I was in some managerial positions. Partly it was, you know, me lacking maybe the initiative to do something. But at one point I just got so tired of being doing initiatives for things and I just wanted somebody to call me and say come and join this. But when I decided to start my coaching practice, I realized that one of the things that I really really wish I had was that kind of support. So having a group of other managers, leaders that I can meet with, even if it's once a month, once every two, three months, it doesn't matter but having someone that I can talk to. And so that's how it all started, even though at that time I wasn't in management anymore.

Snezana Djuric: 35:40

But I reached out to a couple of people I knew. I said look, let's get started. This is the idea behind it. So it's there for us to share our challenges, our wins, how we do things. Maybe, you know, we can learn from others. So it was kind of a group for kind of open ended really, so you can come with a topic, a story, a challenge, a win that you want to share. You can just come and listen and be there to support the other people.

Snezana Djuric: 36:08

And it was for women because, you know, as a woman, that was where I felt most comfortable. Guys, I knew the challenges and I know because men and women go through different challenges in management at least Sure, not to say that theirs is less important. It's just, I'm a woman and as a woman I decided to go that way, and so we don't see each other as often as we used to when we got started, but it's been going on for, I think, three years now. The only requirement was for me that whoever joins joins by recommendation. So it's someone we know, someone we would, and any person had the veto power to say you know, whoever knew is coming. If they didn't feel comfortable around them or if they knew them from some, you had the right to say look this I, because you came first. So it's kind of first come, first serve. It didn't really happen much, but I wanted to have them feel secure and comfortable saying, you know, being surrounded by women who they feel empowered by, and so some of the topics that we discuss sometimes it's balancing. Some of them work with outsourcing companies, so it's balancing the client's demands with the team and how the team can deliver things on time. Team and how the team can deliver things on time For some of them is how to move to the next level having bosses who are not really discrimination but kind of making it really hard for you to move up and grow in your career.

Snezana Djuric: 37:34

Sometimes it's how to manage a certain team member. You know somebody who's being really challenging for whatever reason for them. But it's really we cover a lot of things, from how to be a manager what techniques, strategies, methodologies work for some to how do I deal with this person and how do I make sure that we're still okay, that I'm okay, that they're okay. Firing people that's one of the ones. They don't do it as often, but when someone is in charge of hiring, firing compensation, then we have those conversations as well.

Snezana Djuric: 38:18

Usually you know there's a challenge, be it with a project, a person, your superior, someone who works for you. How do we communicate? How do we deal with that? And everybody I was so surprised.

Snezana Djuric: 38:32

People shared some, really, of course, without sharing any information that would jeopardize the business. And I even said you know, if you don't want to say where you come from, that's fine. Like nobody has to know what business you come from, it doesn't matter. So they would share some really vulnerable moments in their careers and everybody was there to support them and I was so surprised but I was so happy to see that happen. And then, as my coaching career progressed and I got more knowledge, then I would help them as a coach as well. So you know, being able to ask certain questions or help them navigate certain things was really beneficial. But everybody really chipped in and you know we cheered each other on and when there was an open position in one of the companies, you know everybody was sharing. So you know, if we knew that someone struggled or they wanted to change their job, we were there to help and support them. So you know that's what it evolved into really.

Amy Schamberg: 39:28

Well, and that just seems like something that can be generalized to any industry or any group right supportive, safe group of like-minded folks in similar positions where you can get advice, debrief, problem solve, celebrate wins and not feel like you're alone. Because I see that many leaders whether that is a principal of a school where you're the one leader there, or if you are a small business owner and you are, you know, working your butt off to do all of the things because you're wearing all of the hats it can feel isolating and I can really appreciate the value of having that sort of community too. Yeah.

Snezana Djuric: 40:18

One thing that sets it apart, though, that's it's not easy for online stuff, but we are. We do meet physically, so in person, and so I think that contributes so much to dynamics. You know, I mean, my most of my work is online anyway, so I there's so much. There are benefits to online masterminds, meetups, and you know right, but there's something about the energy and the feel of when someone shares their story and you look at them, you really see them, all of them, and you can relate and you know, you can even be there and say, you know, you touch them and say, hey, I gotcha, it's OK, I understand there's so much power in that. So you know, that's, I guess, one of the perks or disadvantages, depending on how you want to look at it. But any support group, really and yeah, you're right Any industry, any position is beneficial.

Amy Schamberg: 41:10

Absolutely yes. Thank you for sharing that. You know, when we kind of zoom out and look at organizational culture and leadership and systems level causes, from your perspective, what are some of the factors that are fueling burnout in today's workplace?

Snezana Djuric: 41:29

Well, one thing, we kind of discussed boundaries or lack thereof. So there's this culture that you have to be always on. So you know we have messaging software or apps on our phone. When I was a manager, I had this very non-negotiable that I wouldn't have anything on my personal phone. So no business chats, no business email. If you wanted me to have that, I would need another phone and that would stay at the office. That was my thing. I did not want to have any messages get to me at 10 pm because I knew that I would be compelled to answer them, and so that was my way of going about it.

Snezana Djuric: 42:10

But definitely this always-on culture in the sense of nowadays, even with remote work, it's where are my boundaries between work and home? You know people who work from their homes and they have one room and home. You know people work from their homes and they have one room. This is everything. You have your work there, your home there, you sleep there, you socialize there, you do your work there, and that kind of FOMO feeling of if I don't respond to this email at 1am, I'm going to get fired or I'm going to be in trouble, which is really challenging, because then you really can't disconnect. So that's one thing. That, on a global perspective, is that I have to respond.

Amy Schamberg: 42:53

So you're saying that across borders, across the world?

Snezana Djuric: 42:57

Cross borders, cross industries. There is especially, the higher up you get, the more you see this in the sense of I have to be responding. You know. Add to that different time zones if you work with cross cultural teams and from different places. So you know, as a leader, if I have someone from the Philippines and someone from the US and someone from Europe, what time zone am I working in? Pretty much that's what it ends up being. So how do I, how do I make sure these people meet? How do I meet with all of them? So that becomes a true challenge.

Snezana Djuric: 43:32

So there's this never shut down moment, and that's a problem for our bodies and our brain. We need that time off to rest. So that creates stress, first and foremost because you have to be somewhere, even that word. You have to do something, and then the burnout. Of course, long-term, this is not beneficial. You can't possibly be always on.

Snezana Djuric: 43:55

Another thing that I've seen again through cultures maybe this is more characteristic of the West is this obsession with productivity in the sense of outcome. That's all that matters. It's the result that matters. It's the outcome, and I don't care how you get there, I don't care if you don't sleep for three days, you have to get it done. So there's this regard of well-being. Somebody's well-being at the cost of this has to be delivered. Now, this is, I would have to say, two-sided. So it does come from the leader in the sense of their demands, but then it does come from an employee in the sense of them not speaking up. So we have to encourage, educate, encourage our employees. If you cannot handle it, you have to tell me, otherwise I'm not going to know. That's right, Especially if you're working remotely and online. You know, if you're in an office, at least you can see if somebody's struggling. But if it's a completely remote work, how do I know that you're struggling If you don't share this with me?

Amy Schamberg: 44:58

Right, and I would add to that maybe a precursor to sharing the struggles is having a culture that feels safe to share those.

Snezana Djuric: 45:07

Yes.

Amy Schamberg: 45:07

Because I think that many people don't feel that they can share their struggles. They fear retaliation, they fear, you know, just being judged, or they feel shameful about that. And when everybody is staying silent and no one is speaking up, then everyone feels like, oh, it must just be me.

Snezana Djuric: 45:29

Agreed, that's why we had this. You know phenomenon of quiet or silent quitting for some time.

Snezana Djuric: 45:35

You know it, just with time, you just leave or you, just you're not there anymore, and that's the worst thing that can happen, because that means that that person wasn't allowed or wasn't encouraged enough or didn't think they had an opportunity to share. And you know, from an organizational point, we have to educate people. From a personal point, every employee, we have to speak up, and sometimes it may be scary, and if you're really scared for your job, okay, don't do it. But if we, if you don't do it, at some point you're going to get sick. Our body inevitably reacts to stress, and so it can be you addressing it or it can be you letting it. And then you know, you know how, when we work, we get sick, and then we were out for a week, you know you have to take a leave, whereas that could have been prevented. But it's because we push and, push and push ourselves, but also we get the pressure from our leaders, our managers, the business itself.

Snezana Djuric: 46:31

Another thing I wanted to add there and we did touch on this at the very beginning is this lack of knowledge on the leadership part of how to handle people, how to lead people. So, you know, young managers or somebody who's just started this leadership position, they may not know how to communicate how to do things the right way. So they need that support to. You know, they need someone to tell them hey, it's okay, look, it's a people business. It'll take time and if you make a mistake, fine. But make sure you talk to your people, make sure you're there for them, and I truly, truly believe that if you are there for the people, you will inevitably get the results. There's no chance that you have a completely supportive culture and people just don't deliver. There may be certain individuals, yes, but no chance that on a global level, you won't get any results. So that's why, you know, we talk so much about investing in people and, of course, if you have lack of knowledge, you're stressed as a manager, because I remember when I started, I had to lead this team and, fine, I was good with communication.

Snezana Djuric: 47:37

But how do I track their time? How do I tell them to do things? How do I make sure they get them done? I can't really just boss them around. That doesn't feel right. But then what do I do? You know, who do I talk to about these things?

Snezana Djuric: 47:50

All of this was putting a lot of pressure and stress on me and then, of course, if I'm stressed, I'm more likely to act out, and so then I put that stress on the people that are there, and so you know it's a vicious circle. Stress on the people that are there, and so you know it's a vicious circle. So there's so much that we can do with. Just okay, yes, we create better onboarding processes, but we also have I know some businesses now have their internal coaches, they have internal mentoring systems, which is amazing, because that gives you the opportunity to learn, and if you don't, I did a lot of things on my own. So, okay, you know, there was nobody else to help me. There must be something that these other people are doing, so let me just Google and find what's out there.

Amy Schamberg: 48:29

So I did a lot of learning on my own causes contributing to burnout, whether it's lack of boundaries, lack of knowing how to put boundaries in place, whether it's feeling like you always have to be on or not feeling comfortable sharing your struggles.

Amy Schamberg: 48:53

And I think that what you said about companies that have invested in coaches for the executive team you know that is so helpful, but for just the standard employee, the teacher that's listening today, or someone who says, well, I would love to express my opinion about how this work is literally killing me, but I don't know how to say that in a way that will be well-received and not get me fired. The great news is there are coaches out there that can help you as well. This is what you do for a living right. This is it's, it's all. It's all something that can be figured out and it's not. The onus is not just on an individual to learn how to do these things. It has to be multi-pronged, it needs to be coming from a leadership team. It needs to be coming absolutely at the very top and, at the same time, fostering a culture where everybody feels that their voice matters, that they belong and that they can raise a concern without fear of being retaliated.

Snezana Djuric: 49:53

Yeah, amy, if I may, I would add, for those teachers and other people if you are listening to this and wondering, one thing you can do is actually write down what you would say. If you are listening to this and wondering, one thing you can do is actually write down what you would say, because there's a big difference. You know, when we're thinking about what we want to say, it sounds great in our minds, but then we say it and it's like I could have done better. But if you write it down, you can literally see what you would be saying and then, when you read it out loud, you can say oh, that sounds great, or maybe I need to change certain things, but it allows you to create something tangible or record yourself whatever it is and then play it and hear it and I see OK, if I'm listening to this and I'm a principal, a boss, how would I react to this? But that's one way you can do yourself without coaches, but by any means, any expert and professional should be there to help you.

Amy Schamberg: 50:46

I love that strategy. Thank you so much for sharing that. I would. I think that sometimes just writing things down to whether you're going to say it or or not is just such a cathartic experience because it takes the thoughts and feelings from inside your body and being pent up to, like you said, putting them somewhere tangible, and that process itself can be really helpful in healing. And perhaps you just pull out a few nuggets like okay, let me just here's my vent right, my one page thing that I would yeah, I used to do that, sure.

Amy Schamberg: 51:18

But then you can maybe Sure, but then you can maybe identify two or three key points and figure out a professional way to communicate that Right, and it could perhaps lead to some helpful results.

Snezana Djuric: 51:35

Yeah, and you also learn about yourself. You know, if you notice that there's things repeating in this venting that you're doing Right, repeating in this venting that you're doing right Then you can ask yourself okay, oh, why does that bother me so much? You know, why is that a trigger for me? And maybe you know that can be an invitation for you to explore and do some self-reflection as well. So you know, it's kind of a win-win you do get to see the points that you want to share and you do it in a professional way, but you also get to learn a little bit about yourself and then try to help yourself in a different way.

Amy Schamberg: 52:06

Yes, I love that. Okay, I think that you and I could have this conversation for five more hours, but as we wrap up, I am curious. You know, what else would you like to to share? Is there anything that you want folks to walk away from today? You've provided so many great nuggets of wisdom and actionable strategies. What else would you like us to know?

Snezana Djuric: 52:33

One thing I want to leave with is it's a top to bottom and bottom to top approach. Regardless of whether you're in business and education, wherever you are and whatever you are, be it an employee or a boss, the change has to go both ways. So the top needs to be aware of the issues and think of strategies, initiatives, things that we can do to change the bottom, in the sense, just the employees who do day-to-day work. We need to be able to speak up. Just the employees who do day-to-day work. We need to be able to speak up. We need to support ourselves to do that and we need to educate ourselves so that we can contribute. So you know, it has to be really both ways, otherwise it doesn't work.

Snezana Djuric: 53:14

If I'm just waiting for my boss to tell me what to do or to have a feedback session with me, maybe they don't have the time, maybe they don't see the need, but if I feel the need, I need to be the one to go out there and say, hey, can we have 10 minutes today? I need to talk to you about something. Same goes for teachers. If your work is overwhelming, if there's a way for you to speak up, do it. If not, think of ways to help yourself. Do a time blocking. Think of ways to help yourself, like do a time blocking, you know, block your time. You know. You said when do we do planning, class planning, preparing materials, stuff like that? Maybe we say, okay, every day after school I'm going to spend 30 minutes doing this and that's my boundary. So you know, you can start small but build from there. So it's never one way, it's never one solution or works for everyone, but we have to keep trying.

Amy Schamberg: 54:07

That's right. It needs to be holistic, it needs to be comprehensive and everybody has a part to play.

Snezana Djuric: 54:13

Find accountability partners, find support groups, find people who are going to inspire you and motivate you but also say, yes, that was a horrible thing they did. You know you should have. You know whatever you need at that moment, find someone you can have that with.

Amy Schamberg: 54:30

Yes, all of the above, oh my gosh. Well, I think that we are going to absolutely need to schedule a part two, because this has been incredible. Where can people find you if they'd like to connect or learn more from you or read your blogs?

Snezana Djuric: 54:47

Really the best place is LinkedIn. I am there most of my time. I do have a small newsletter on LinkedIn as well, so I share leadership tips and growth tips in general there, so they can follow that. I do have a website which I assume you're going to leave links.

Amy Schamberg: 55:03

All of this will be linked Yep. So if people want to connect with you, linkedin is the best place. They can find more resources on your website, which we will link both your LinkedIn and your website. And I would just want to put a plug out for your two newsletter articles on delegation. Oh, thank you. Yes, they are great. I highly encourage everyone to take a look at those. Snezana, thank you so much for this conversation. This has been incredible and I just really appreciate all of the wisdom and strategies and perspective that you were able to provide, and I do hope that we can connect and continue this conversation in the future.

Snezana Djuric: 55:46

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me over. It's been a pleasure and I look forward to part two.

Amy Schamberg: 55:50

Wonderful, all right, thanks, bye, bye. Thanks so much for listening to talk. If you found today's episode valuable, please consider sharing it with a colleague or leaving a review, and remember to hit follow so you never miss an episode. For additional resources to support educator well-being and organizational change, visit my website at amyshanbergcom backslash TALK and if you'd like to keep today's conversation going, let's connect on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Finally, don't forget to check the show notes for links to today's guests and everything they're up to. See you next time.