TAUGHT
TAUGHT explores real solutions to the educator burnout crisis- because you can’t self-care your way out of systemic dysfunction.
This season, we’re shifting the focus from stories to strategies, and rethinking what workplace wellness in education really means.
Through compelling conversations with experts in education, mental health, and organizational leadership, each episode unpacks the root causes of burnout and offers actionable strategies to help transform schools into healthier, safer, and more sustainable places to work.
TAUGHT
From Military Collapse to Men's Mental Health Champion with Craig Madden
What happens when the very traits that fuel your success lead to collapse? In this raw and powerful episode, Army veteran and coach Craig Madden shares how years of emotional suppression in the British military led to physical and mental breakdown, and how he rebuilt his life from the ground up. Now “The Dad Stress Coach,” Craig challenges toxic norms around masculinity and leadership, helping men navigate identity, burnout, and fatherhood with clarity and purpose.
Listen now to hear how Craig is redefining strength—and learn what it really takes to lead, parent, and live well under pressure.
Connect with Craig on Facebook & LinkedIn
Need mental health help now, or know a man who does? Check out Man Therapy.
Read the Episode Transcript on the TAUGHT website.
Connect with host Amy Schamberg on LinkedIn
Explore:
- Learn more about the Total Worker Health® approach from NIOSH
- Discover Amy’s wellness workshops, coaching, and consulting at amyschamberg.com
- Check out the book that started it all! Taught: The Very Private Journal of One Bad Teacher by Melissa Lafort — Available on Amazon
Want to Be a Guest on TAUGHT?
We're always looking to elevate expert voices and real solutions. Email amy@amyschambergwellness.com with your name, title, and a brief description of your perspective or experience in education or workforce wellbeing.
Need Support Right Now?
For immediate mental health resources, visit HealthCentral or connect with a licensed provider in your area.
Music. Across the globe, educators are burnt out. Research shows that chronic stress and burnout harms teachers' health, drives high turnover and disrupts student learning. It's time to stop treating burnout like a personal failing and start addressing the systems, structures and root causes that are burning educators out in the first place. Hi everyone, I'm Amy Schamberg and welcome to Season 2 of TAUGHT, where we are shifting the conversation from stories to solutions and rethinking what workplace wellness and education really means. Hello everyone, and welcome back to TAUT.
Speaker 1:Our guest today is Craig Mattern, the dad stress coach. Craig is an Army veteran, an award-winning author, a public speaker and an internationally accredited stress coach. After serving 15 years in the British Army's Air Corps and roles that taught him how to lead under pressure, to the point where, eventually, he hit a breaking point, craig underwent a radical transformation, one that changed not only his life but the lives of countless others, and today Craig has become a powerful voice in the world of leadership and men's mental health. He's an International Coaching Federation accredited coach and holds a level seven qualification in leadership and management. He's the founder of Craig Maddern Coaching, where he helps hardworking dads and burned out professionals build stress-proof lives with clarity, calm and purpose. And today we are in for a treat. Craig is here, joining us all the way from Wales to tell us how we can redefine leadership, prevent burnout and build organizations where people thrive. Craig, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, amy. That was a really nice introduction and thank you for having me. It's really nice to see you again and, yeah, looking forward to our discussion today. To break stress down yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to dive in, and I was just thinking as I was reading this. For the people who aren't quite sure where Wales is located, explain to them where you are joining us from today.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the best country in the UK, so basically it's United Kingdom. You've got England, northern Ireland, scotland and Wales, so it's a small country. I think there's only between three and four million people in it, so I was part of the British Army. But yeah, it's a small country and it's really nice, really nice place, if you ever visit Lovely landscapes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for sharing that. So were you born and raised in Wales? Have you been there your entire life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, born, raised in Wales and obviously I lived in.
Speaker 1:England whilst I was in the army and then traveled the world a bit. But, yeah, come back to Wales now. So very cool, very cool. Craig, your story is so powerful and I thought it would be helpful to just kind of start with you taking us back to that time in your life where the stress nearly broke you and just kind of setting the stage for how that kind of transformed everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Well, I have done tours of Afghan. That really wasn't when the stress started. Really is as I started getting older and becoming more of a leader within the British Army at the time, because when I first joined, I was just grunt, basically just a guy that does yes and no sort of thing. But as sort of grow through leadership, you do get more responsibility. At the same time, I had a family. I've got a wife and three kids one's 18, one's 11 and one is six.
Speaker 2:So I think it was trying to balance that work-life balance as well, because the army is pretty much your life. You're working Monday to Friday normally, but you obviously have to go away quite a lot and I just found myself like trying saying no was almost like a I don't know a sin in its way of like you couldn't say no because then people would judge you or you'd have the stigma where you know you're meant to be quite robust, you're meant to say yes to everything. You're meant to try and fight through it. So that's where I found myself like never really saying no to things and actually just pushing myself to the next level and saying yes, and in 2018, I started to slowly see my life drop down hill, if you'd like and started having chest pains. Didn't know what it was, and I'll fast forward, because it's sort of on and off and I'm sure people don't want to hear me going back and forth to the doctors, but it was only until 2021 that I collapsed in my bathroom after being away for two weeks. So I hadn't seen my kids for two weeks and I collapsed in my bathroom. Then I was bed bound basically for like four or five months whilst they tried to find out what was wrong, tried to go back to work, and that's like a big red flag. You can already see that something's wrong with me. I'm already stressed. Something has absolutely burnt me out to the point of passing out, but yet I was still trying to push myself, go back to work, because I felt this stigma.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I eventually found out I needed a pacemaker at the age of 30 31, which was quite a bit of a shock, considering I was really fit and healthy. And, yeah, I got a pacemaker put in and that really was the collapse, because I think my mental health took a turn then and I realized that wasn't this superhero that I put myself out to be. It got to some dark times where, unfortunately but fortunately, at the same time I did try to take my own life. That's when I started to reach out for help, real reaching out for help, and, as you can see me now, that was a radical transition to where I was. But I think I needed that wake up call. But I just hope for others that they don't have to go through that wake up call before they start reaching out that wake up call. But I just hope for others that they don't have to go through that wake up call before they start reaching out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Wow, Thank you so much for sharing that. And yeah, I too am grateful that you were able to come out on the other side and into your life's passion. It sounds like so. You said 2018 to 2021. So about three years of like really struggling but not really know what was going on or you know, able to kind of pause until you literally collapsed in your bathroom, Like your body literally shut down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and alcohol was pretty much the medicine at the time. I was drinking usually on a weekend a bottle of whiskey. I was drinking through the week as well, but I'd drink a bottle of whiskey 750 cl and then I was then going oh, I need some more. So I drink like half a bottle of my wife's gin and then I would love like eight ciders or six to eight sides. So I was like literally almost subconsciously trying to take myself out then, and it was then after it where I realized I can't drink anymore. Wow, I'm in this non-medicated universe now where it's like everything's reality, and that was quite scary, to be honest yeah, I'm wondering.
Speaker 1:I think I might know the answer, but I would like to hear from you like, during that period of time where it was like super stressful and things were kind of falling apart, how were, like, the other health aspects of your life, like your sleep, your nutrition, your exercise, that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:yeah, as you say, you know the answer. I mean it started to dip. I was always like quite fit. When I was a young lad I used to run for for Wales. I used to. When I was a kid, used to run, play football, rugby, and then I seen like my life just diminished and I kept on like making excuse, like oh, it's age, I'm getting older, so I'm becoming unfit, and that's completely incorrect because I'm fitter than I ever have been now. So so that's incorrect. But yeah, it was everything just dropped because stress takes over and your body's just trying to get that quick endorphin, that quick happiness, that quick chemical reaction that you need. So you just, you know force feeding yourself, takeaways and whatnot.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I think that's a common pattern that we see. I mean, I've gone through it to myself and it's like when you're so busy and you're so stressed and you feel like you don't have time to take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:So those are typically the first things that kind of fall off, unfortunately, which, as you can imagine if anyone's listening to this part, and say that's what makes it worse, because then you start looking in the mirror and you start finding yourself going downhill, then you eat which makes yourself go down more, and it's just, unfortunately, it's a it's a snowball effect, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it really is. Yeah, I, I read in your on your website that you you had said that the military taught you how to stay composed, but also how to suppress, and I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit more about that yeah, I mean, I think, to be honest, I completely agree with that sentiment that yes, the military taught it, but I think it's also taught in society.
Speaker 2:So I will state that I think society in the West especially does teach to suppress in certain aspects. In some jobs I think it's getting better. But in the military you are trying to show that you are somebody that can take a lot on your shoulders. You are trying to be somebody that can not break under pressure. A lot on your shoulders, you are trying to be somebody that can not break under pressure and, to be quite honest, a lot of it is that you could probably understand is yeah, okay, I understand that, because if you are in a tricky situation then you need to be able to deal with quite a lot. So it then becomes your bread and butter, it becomes your norm that actually I don't need to talk out because I can, I can find a way I can break through the pressures and stuff like that. So it teaches it without directly teaching it. It doesn't say you must bottle everything up, but it's the way that they're trying to reform you into this sort of soldier that you do end up trying to suppress certain elements.
Speaker 2:And what I realized and I think the biggest if someone was to show me a video back in at that date, like, look at you back then I think what would have been the biggest and obvious display of that actually being true was with my wife and kids, who I always joke in a way but, like, for me kids are mini therapists because kids will come out with the best things and you'd be like I never thought of that. And my wife, who's my everything, she knows this. She's like I always say that that I don't say the first time we met. I always say the first day that you saved my life. It's like something I always say to her. I don't think I was really bottling up from the army because you'd expect me to in some sort of way, but I realized I was bottling up from them, my support network, and that's when I realized that what I had been taught was instilled in within me and I couldn't change it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so do you like. Were you bottling up like your feelings and just kind of putting on a mask and just trying to get through the day, Like can you expand on that a bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a mask. I think that's the best way to explain it. It was this mask that I put on. If I was on my own, I would be very down and broken, but I used put this. My nickname was mad, so I used to call it my mad's mask because it was something I put on and didn't matter how broken I was, how stressed I was, how sad I was, how depressed I may have felt if you would have seen me on the front.
Speaker 2:I was always smiling, making dark jokes, making you know, trying to make people laugh, trying to break the surface, trying to break the sort of awkwardness if something's not easy and just. I then realized, as it got through, this mask that I was wearing was starting to crack and I was becoming more moan. I was moaning more about things instead of actually dealing with them. I was just going, oh, this is really annoying and stuff, and then almost bringing people in to that situation as well, like, oh, I'm really unhappy with this and it's like a virus, isn't it? And then everyone starts coming in. Good, yeah, I agree, it really does suck. I don't like this and that's a really bad leadership trait. You should really be pushing out positive vibes and trying to actually deal with the situation, but because I was so stressed, I was bringing people and sucking them into my dark world, if you'd like yeah, yeah, that's, uh, I think that happens quite often as well.
Speaker 1:I am so glad that you you named that, so you know, you kind of alluded to starting to rebuild, and what did that journey look like for you, you know?
Speaker 2:that that is in a book um, a lot of it so. But no, in all honesty, it was. I know it because I'm trying not to cliche you here and go oh, it was such a tough journey. You know the journey was hard but I got there because I feel like that's the answer to it all the time. So I'm trying to think of something to really portray my journey. I guess it was unexpected, so I didn't expect that I could actually build up again, which I think a lot of people in that situation will be like. They'd be like, right, okay, this sucks. So the journey is gonna suck whatever happens.
Speaker 2:But for me, what was really great is the roller coaster journey, because I think everyone thinks that you know, when you rebuild, it's like this one big, long sort of upward travel. It's really not like a lot of people need to realize that you will have bad days, bad weeks, bad months during that journey where you feel like you've fallen back into the prefaces of this horribleness and this darkness and this demonic sort of feeling that you have within you. So I think that needs to be portrayed in my journey. It was not all the way up. I didn't just like start getting better every single day. Sometimes I dropped, but what I think did keep on going up was my resilience. Like, because of the things I went through, my resilience journey just kept building until the point now, even to this day.
Speaker 2:You know, I always say to my clients as well, because they always say it must be so nice not to have like panic attacks anymore and it must be so nice not to have chest pains anymore.
Speaker 2:And the first thing I would say is like what makes you think that? Of course I do have those things, of course I have stressful moments, of course I have anger, a human being at the end of the day. So my journey was very much up and down, but what I think got me through it was the resilience throughout, like having that I know why I'm down now and having that answer to then be able to rebuild myself back up for the next week. Because I always like that sort of analogy about the roller coaster when it comes to depression and when it comes back down. Sometimes you can go so far down that it's hard to get the roller coaster back up because it just doesn't, the wheels don't work or whatever it may be, so you have to sometimes put a ladder up, to climb back up to where you were, and that ladder for me was just using my kids and my wife as the support network I needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that analogy and I think you're absolutely right. I've seen so many times when people are kind of in the throes of depression and in that darkest point it feels like things will never get better. It feels like things can't possibly change Right.
Speaker 2:No, and it's such a horrible thing as well because it's a trick. And that's what's so horrible about it. It is a trick on your mind that you think it can't get better. And I do speak to a lot of my clients and sometimes a lot of them have got really good excuses to be in that situation where nothing's going to get better. And I used to.
Speaker 2:When I first started coaching, in group coaching or whatever it may be, I would always have this one person that would say something I'd be like oh, oh, that is hard to come out of. But then I realize in with my own journey, it's like, yes, you know, I'm talking about people losing loved ones recently and stuff. And I'd be like you're going through a tough time. And the difference between a tough time is it, it's got a time limit on it and don't worry, there is where you start popping up. You have to do it yourself.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately apart, I think I use analogy before when someone said to me on a I think it was another podcast like, would you say, you're the one that grabs them from falling off the cliff, I said not really. I said all I am is that person that, whilst they're struggling to climb up the cliff themselves and get back up onto the ledge where they were at. It's just that they can grab onto me a little bit. They don't need me to like pull them up and use my strength. They need their own strength to pull themselves up, but they just need that hand there to actually start.
Speaker 1:You know, pull themselves up to get that sort of grip and you serve as a model for your clients, too, because of the fact that you've been, you've walked in their shoes and and you've come out of it right. So I think that I would imagine that you are such an inspiration for those that have the pleasure of working with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard, to hard to see it from yourself. Inspiration. You know, like when someone says I guess you don't see it as you're going through the program, the like the 12 weeks, you more see that you do see, you feel helpful and you know sometimes they'll gasp off and sometimes you may not be able to say sympathize, but you can empathize, like I haven't been through that exact thing but I can transfer it to something I've been through. So but yeah, I think, admittedly, at the end you do feel a bit like yeah, I must've inspired that person. It makes you feel good about what you can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well, you alluded to some societal components that drive burnout and really just perpetuate the stigma around mental health for men, especially when we talked about suppressing feelings and staying composed and wearing a mask. I'm curious what are some other systemic factors or cultural or societal factors that you've either experienced yourself or in your work with all of your clients are hearing Like? Are the the factors behind the men that you work with? Why do they feel like they have to put on a mask and just suck it up and deal with it?
Speaker 2:confusion is probably the big word in bold and then social media, just dragging that confusion down. So I would go as quite a far, a high percentage, as I say, of men that speak to me eventually will. Even if it's not at the beginning, they will eventually talk about social media and it's usually along the line that they I always work out. And, looking back at my data, at my notes and speaking to people, it's always something it's like it's too far left or it's too far right, and I don't mean in political terms, I just mean like directionally. So it's either it's, you know, they're a bit too feminine and they're a bit too open. And they said that they feel like people use the phrases of man up, you know, you're meant to be a man, this is where you should be, and they're like, oh, that's so much pressure. But then if they go for the other side, where they're too masculine and manly, they feel like this is now a toxic thing and that they're just trying to be who they are. And I feel for them because I've been in that situation where I've been in that exact situation where I was really like polished off as this, like nope, that's it, I'm a man I've got to deal with it. I grew up in that sort of working area you know like men be men and stuff like that and then, as I did break, I then realized I went too far. The other side, where I was like I'm just sad all the time and I felt like I was a burden on my family and I noticed it starting to break my family because I was like, I realized after a while, I was like I have got a role in this family and they look up to me to do so and I realized I was getting it wrong this whole time. I was being either too strong too, not present enough for my kids, or I was just sad no, I'm going out, I'm sad and they needed me to be the rock but also the playful dad. So I just changed my life in that way. I changed my mindset.
Speaker 2:I didn't listen to social media and what they're telling me to do. I listened to books. I say listen, read and listen to books. I say listen, read and listen to some books on Audible wrote my own book and I realize and I tell my clients all the time is, social media is not news and social media isn't real life and social media isn't what you should be doing.
Speaker 2:Social media is that, like evil sometimes presence that's poking you, saying you're doing it wrong, and you know what. Every time, every single time, when I tell them to remove themselves from this area of social media and just concentrate on themselves, how does your wife react? How does your wife need you as a partner? How do your kids react to you? How do your kids need you as a relationship? That completely changes them because they're not focusing on what they should do. They focus on their family and what is correct. Do they focus on their family and what is correct? So that really helps, and I feel like social media can sometimes be the burden on men and men's mental health and cause a lot of confusion.
Speaker 1:So I love that you switch the metric to real life. Um right, like how? How is your family responding when you come in with this energy?
Speaker 2:I've um, it's gonna be a big brag. Get the trumpet and the drums. Uh, I've never seen them more happy in my life. I've never seen my daughter so happy. My son, who's now 18, he's grown up and he's really trying to get a grip of his life. You know, sometimes he's 18 so you have to sort of remind. My six-year-old son is just the happiest kid all the time and he's really got a strong heart. But he's also just a typical boy. He could be boisterous. And my wife, on top of all that as well, she's.
Speaker 2:We've just got this amazing relationship and like it's never happened before and what was so good about me coming out and saying, look, I know I've not been great and it was hard for me to do that like say to the it's almost sit the family down almost and say, look, I haven't been great and I was like trying to put myself on this social media pedestal. It's like, oh, men, have got to be like this big, strong, andrew Tate type of guy. And then the next minute it's like, oh, no, no, we've got to be like this big, strong, andrew Tate type of guy. And then the next minute it's like, oh, no, no, we've got to be really, really soft and we've got to be like feminine. And then I was like well, hold on what worked for my family. Me and my wife are amazing. Me and my kids are amazing. We do stuff together. I spend time with them. We just have this perfect, perfect, never perfect.
Speaker 1:You always have always things to grow, but this it feels perfect to me because I just love every moment of it. But it's beautiful. It's such a such a radical change for me. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that and I'm so happy for you and your family. It sounds like, just like you said, being present and not feeling burdened by all of these negative emotions or stress or expectations or assumptions, and just letting yourself be who you need to be for yourself and for your family yeah, exactly that, and that was for my.
Speaker 2:Identity is so important to people. And identity is what I lost when I was medically taken out of the army, because my pacemaker and I was just like who am I? I don't know who Craig Martin's meant to be. And I was just like who am I? I don't know who Craig Madden's meant to be. And I was looking for all these personas. Oh, he's meant to be this like celebrity millionaire guy, or is he meant to be this soldier who's really fit, or maybe he's meant to.
Speaker 2:I was like it's been in front of me the whole time. I'm Craig Madden, the dad. I love it. Do you know what I mean? Because how many times do you go on social media and some person or man is bragging, or woman is bragging about a man that is a good dad, that is just there for the kids, that is just loving the kids. And it wasn't until I came into this world where I'm working with a lot of men. I get to see it more now, which is really nice. I've told my social media no, stop it, show me stuff I like. And that was a little trick I did about with algorithms, but yeah it, it's really nice.
Speaker 1:Well and I think what you said is really important too, because not just for men, I think, men and women as we advance in our careers, we get to this point where our identity is wrapped up in our professional lives and who we are as a career person, and when something changes, whether that's needing to leave the army for medical reasons or just because we even change our mind and we want to pivot and do something else, there's still this difficult period of well, if I'm not a this, what am I like, you know, and what will think of me? And it's, it's, it's hard, absolutely 100.
Speaker 2:It really is, and it was my therapist when I we talked about this before. You know that it took me a while to get the right person to help me, and people shouldn't fear about it if they don't find the right. But it took me a while and he said one thing. It just stuck with me. We said two things. First thing, I walked in the room and we chatted for a bit and he looked at me. He said if you carry on the way you are, you'll be dead in a ditch. And I was so like taken back by it, like no one's been this stern with me before. But that's what I was looking for for me personally as a person, not saying that's what you want to hear from every therapist, right. But the other thing he said to me is he kept on asking me over and over again because I was like getting this thing, I really want to be there, so I really want to be a coach or anyone to earn money for my family anyway. What if you was to break your leg tomorrow? What if you was to become ill again? You couldn't earn money for your family, right? So you're not.
Speaker 2:Craig Madden, the, the project manager. Craig Madden the soldier. Craig Madden the coach, your they're your add-on and your beliefs to your identity. Your identity is Craig Madden the father. Your family need you the. I like this picture. I don't know if you've seen it. It's a man sitting on a bench and he looks really stressed and he's holding his hands and his head and he's got this bubble above his head and he's thinking about car and his. I think he's like his kids going to the roller coasters and all this stuff and all that. And then his kids just got one thing in the bubble and that's him, his dad, right there oh, the kids there with the dad oh, wow I know sometimes the picture says a thousand words.
Speaker 2:I was like oh yeah, like all your kid cares about is that you're there right now. So yeah, that opened my mind so much, so much.
Speaker 1:That just hit me because I think about how many times my 10-year-old is chatting about something he's so excited about and I am like 10 million miles away in my head thinking about everything else and he just wants me to be present in that conversation, and that is really powerful. I want to come back to what you said about finding the therapist. That was direct with you and stern and that's what you needed. Yeah, we were talking, before we hit record, about finding therapists is it can take a little bit of time, and the first therapist that a person works with or the first coach that someone works with might not be the right fit, and that doesn't mean that coaching doesn't work for you or therapy doesn't work for you, right? This means you gotta try again and find someone else, and so I'm grateful that you both have that.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree. It's, for instance, just because your first car wasn't great.
Speaker 2:You never drive again you know you get a car, try another car, you try another car, same with anything. You know, like I just think it's really important and, don't get me wrong, I have felt the other side of it as well, because I was I actually was against it at one point. I was like, no, no, I've been in that situation, you know, thinking no, like the, the first therapy sort of I had, I went in there for help and then it was not aimed at me, and then I was like, oh, I just felt like I came in for help and then it's just transferred to my family. When I came in, you'd help so I could help them. And then, yeah, just eventually I just felt it was a bit too soft for me, a bit a little bit.
Speaker 2:It was a bit too like, oh, you know, and I just, and then I went to this uh therapist in Wales and he just went, boom, I was like okay, like his honesty really surpassed like everything, and you'd be quite ironic because we had so much differences, from nationality to our sexual preference, to everything it was. So we were so far apart as people yeah, yeah but our, our just beliefs just aligned.
Speaker 2:it was quite wonderful in that way that we just had so many differences, like I said, from sexuality to our beliefs, to our nationality, to what I believe in marriage, to what he believes, so different, but at the same time, like we just clicked, so it just also shows you. You know, you can go to anybody and as long as you click, that's what works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that right the therapeutic relationship. We don't have to be best friends with our therapist, we don't have to have all of our similar interests, but when you find someone that you click with, it's a transformational experience and I hope that anybody who is considering getting help keep that in mind. Talk more about leadership and the role of leadership, whether that's, you know, the army or in the corporate world, or you know, I come from the field of education. But what is leadership's role in preventing burnout with their teams and promoting a healthy, mentally healthy workplace? Where does leadership fall into that?
Speaker 2:It's really it's such an important element. Fall into that. It's really such an important element. Funnily enough, before I was doing this, I sort of went into a job for six months which was teaching leadership management to new people in the UK. So I was literally teaching them everything to leadership management and I talked about stress. Ironically enough, I think it plays a pivotal role. I think it's as big as you can really get within a company, because it's not just about I. Oh yeah, you're at a manager level. You need to know about leadership. If everybody knows about leadership within a company, you can lead yourself and you can lead others.
Speaker 2:And with stress, with, and what a leadership role is, when you think about the characteristics or the qualities of a leader, you know they're empathetic, their work, ethos, the way they treat people, the communication, everything about them can really prevent stress.
Speaker 2:Because and this is what I talk about a lot of the time in work and if you look at well, I'll go for corporate for now but if you look in a workplace, where does stress really come from?
Speaker 2:It's dotted in from all bad leadership qualities, because if you have low capacity in your workplace and you feel like you're doing more than you should. That comes from bad leadership. If you feel like you don't know what's going on and you only hear things last minute, that comes from bad leadership. If you are feeling like your well-being is not being taken care of and you can't reach out to someone, that comes from bad leadership. So if you really think of it, sometimes it's so easy to say good leadership can cause, really, you know, can lower stress, but when you do flip it sometimes and look at bad leadership and what it can do for stress or you've got to realize that if you flip the table on that and that if you have good communication, people know what's going on. They're not doing last minute tasks last minute. You know jobs, the capacity in the workstations, good and not working and doing other jobs. So I think it's everything in a workplace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything.
Speaker 1:So what would you say to the leader who's listening right now and is is thinking to themselves I am working my ass off right, I am working all the time and I am doing the best I can, and if you saw my workload, you know you would understand why I'm not able to check in on people one on one and what. You're calling me a bad leader. I'm not able to check in on people one-on-one, and what you're calling me a bad leader? I'm doing an amazing job, right? So I want to put that plug out there that I think a lot of leaders are trying their best and they are also under an extreme amount of pressure. So what would you say to those folks?
Speaker 2:I have. I'll go back to the army days then. I know about pressure and how it can be just constant. What I found, though and I look back is that sometimes my own pressure is that if I'm expecting other people to accept my leadership, they need to accept it. They need to accept I'm the leader. I am the leader. I also need to be a role model which is a key element of being a leader. Right that we can show what we can do.
Speaker 2:So if you have a workload that you can't control, unfortunately you're lacking your own leadership qualities right there. So I had a time where I was working from nine o'clock I think it was seven o'clock in the morning till nine o'clock in the night no, in fact, ten o'clock at night and for some time I just thought, like this just sucks, this just sucks. I can't believe I got so much going on. Like people need to understand that I've just got so much on, but I realized that, like there's a few things I could do so, like the eisenhower matrix. So having like my procrastination tasks, having like my urgent tasks, the ones I can delegate and when I used to teach this as well, they go, but I delegate is just another way of just going oh, I can't be bothered to this.
Speaker 2:I went not if you do it properly, because you can delegate your tasks so other people can develop and grow and you can build a relationship with them whilst they're doing tasks for you. So I understand and I am empathetic that people are sometimes so you can clearly say snowed under, but you've got to fill your cup before you can fill others. So if you are struggling and you can't deal with your own workload, how are you expecting to reduce other people's workloads? You've got to sort yours out first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it might seem the impossible task, but there's always a way yeah, it almost makes me think about being a parent and we have, like, so many chores and household tasks that you need to take care of. And it's starting to be the summertime. My kids are on break and I'm trying to teach them how to take care of some things on their own, and it takes a lot of time in the beginning and they're not doing it the way that I actually would like them to do it, but it's better than me doing everything and eventually they'll get there Right and it's empowering to them to know that they can contribute to something.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent. Do you know what I agree so much? Because that was going to be my next really stage of talking about it. An analogy would, yeah, with my children's that I realized that me and my wife were under a lot of pressure. My wife was trying to keep up with a lot of things, such as I was as well and I realized that you've got such an opportunity and people go oh, you just give things your kids. You treat them like, you know, mini slaves or whatever people call it, or like mini little workers, and it's like well, actually no, because the way you is different. So if, for instance, I give my son a task to do, it might be take his bins out, it might be help mummy downstairs with some cleaning.
Speaker 2:First thing I do is teamwork. So I say why don't you work together? It's been so amazing, you should see them. They're like really into it now. They're like we're a team, all right. And if they don't do the task, I sit there and go. Why do you think it went wrong? And they were like uh, make them think, develop them. And if they do, well, you know, it's not always like here's money or here's a treat, but it'll be like you did really well there, I'm so happy. So they can not only see that they get rewarded, but the feeling of making someone they love happy. So I know we're not going to go that far in work and you're not going to get all your workers around.
Speaker 2:I love you so much. You did it all, but getting them into that sort of situation, you know where you can delegate them, but not put it in a way like I need you to do this, I'm busy, I need you to do this. You know it's more just communicating with your team. And why are they doing it? Give them reason, and I'm sure they. You go back to what you said about the Eisenhower matrix. For those who don't know what that is, it sounds like a it myself. In some way you can change it to yourself. But basically it's a four grid table that's broken down into urgent tasks you need to do right now and you actually do them, and then on the right of that table, you've got a place where it's like tasks that you can do, but it doesn't mean to be right now, you need to do them, but they're like in the future, sort of thing but not urgent, yeah, but not urgent, yeah, but not urgent.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, if I said I need the car to car for an MOT, that'll be in the urgent. I need to do that this week. I need to wash my car. That's like maybe not as urgent, so that can go into the next week. You know I need to take my kids out and spend time with them. For me that's urgent because I do that daily. All that sort of stuff really comes in Bottom left of the table.
Speaker 2:If you're writing out, I mean you don't have to do it in a table, you can write out it just in four segments, as I've said. So the first one I said is urgent. The second one is not as urgent, just important. Just push that a bit right. Uh, put it on the bottom left is delegate. So can you ask someone to help you with it? Can you ask someone to do it for you? But have a reason why. So it might be, you know, amy, can you do this for me? Because this is why and this is what you'll gain out of it.
Speaker 2:And then the bottom right one is procrastinating. So what do you do that you just don't need to do. And it's really, really helpful. That for stress because if you write everything out you need to do, I call that the bin and you just chuck it in there. You don't need to do it. When do I need to go and scroll on social media? I like to scroll on social media for half an hour, so when am I going to do that? You don't. And it's really helpful for stress because 90% of the time when I do it, my clients, they're writing loads of stuff down. So I get them to write it like a big running dump and I go right, this, what do you need to do? They go um, it's not that urgent. I go do you want to get someone else to do it? I go well, not really, cause it's not that important. I go okay, we'll put that there.
Speaker 1:And then you'll find that you've got a few tasks left that and I'm laughing because I think of my own procrastination and you know, mindless scrolling through travel and deals and like planning the perfect vacation that we're not actually going on anytime soon. I mean like it's so important. Or, you know, cleaning out the sock drawer for the 10th time. You know things that, yeah to not do the thing that you need to do. I love that, I love that matrix, and I think sometimes I find that writing things out, just actually having that mind to paper and having that tangible product, really is a helpful tool. So thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2:I do help. It's a little added bonus for you as well. It's procrastination. I do with clients, I do with some friends as well. Um, I write in procrastination because I'm fearful, because a lot of procrastination comes from fear or because a lot of people go ask laziness really in it, but it's not. It's because you know that you've got to do a lot and your body, your cortisol is high in your body, so your stress is going. Oh, I don't really want to deal with that. So you'll push it, you'll, you'll do things that procrastinate because it's easier than doing the hard task at the top left. So you'll just go, oh, eating crisps and or chips, as you'd call them, watching, eating chips, watching tv that sounds a lot easier than washing the car, but then you're not getting the task done.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yes, there's always anxiety behind procrastination, and the thing about it is the longer we procrastinate, the higher that anxiety level grows, and if we just took the step to do the thing, it would come right down yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like taking the jump. You need to jump in the water. I know it's cold, but when you do you can enjoy the swim. But you need to jump in first, right?
Speaker 1:so exactly right, yeah, okay. So, um, what are some common patterns that you help your clients unlearn, like? What are some of those mindset shifts that are like the top priority when you start working with someone?
Speaker 2:The first thing we do is morning and night times, because a lot of them with high levels of stress. Even though there's a lot of stress in the day, it's then added stress because of the morning and night time. In the day it's then added, but added stress because of the morning, night time. So one of the things I make sure in the morning is the chaotic wake up where they pretty much press alarm off. They're up, they're brushing their teeth, they're having a shower, they're getting the stuff ready, they've got the food ready, off to work, they go. However they do it.
Speaker 2:I break that routine because I get them to do things like wake up a little bit earlier, have 15 minutes, no distractions, no phone, go for a walk, walk the dogs. If you've got pets, I then get them to drink water, I get them to, I get them to talk and spend time with the kids. That's in the morning, without no phones and stuff like that. I get them to do exercise if they can. So I know I said walk, but if they can go to the gym, if they can really push themselves in the morning, because it's that big win, even though it's a small win, it's a big win for a lot of people, so I've got them out of that horrible rut.
Speaker 2:In the morning we look at the night time because they're getting up a bit earlier. It's sometimes easier to do that next. So then we look at things like I call it the sunrise at the sunset. So the sunset routine is imagine you're the sunset, you're gonna relax down, instead of what a lot of people do is that they'll be full on, full on, full on. It'll get to 9 pm, 10 pm, and then they'll go right time for to rest. Now I'm going to bed where I get them to slow down their routine. So, like you know, do whatever you need to do. Of course, stay busy. You know you want to get stuff done, you want to be successful, whatever it may be. But then, like, bring themselves down. Let the kids see that as well. Spend time with the kids, relax, rest.
Speaker 2:And I always say I know it sounds so like force, but it's like read a book before bed or something. Do not watch tv, don't go on your phone, start scrolling, because then you're being um, because of the way that your brain works and how the endorphins work with the phone, because you're watching, you're scrolling and the dopamine that you get the release, your cortisol is not dropped down enough and you are just basically then laying there because you've now not rested. So I get them to that and, believe it or not, when they've got them two bits sorted, sometimes we get to the bit where I in work, they go uh yeah, it's still stressing me out, but I'm not as stressed. So then we just really break down that I like to call it the last cut effect, where it's like you're cutting the things out of your day.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I call them um, energy leaks. Like, imagine, like you know, you've got a few leaks in the, the water. You know, like, do you really need to do this? Can you say no for a day? You know, put a bit of pressure, say, say no to something today that you really don't need to do and uh, yeah. So that's like the first thing morning, evening routines like so big for me, because that's how I changed. Well, that's how I saved my life, I think really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean that's bookending your day the start of your day and the end of your day. It almost doesn't matter what happens in between if you have control over those two parts and you can really focus on yourself and what matters most to you and your family at those moments, right right, yeah, it's saved.
Speaker 2:It saved me massively, like I think it's I. I think it was one of the things that saved my life was to understand that if you can go to bed no, it's not about everyone says like, oh, is it about going to bed early? I was like it's not always, because some people you know I do have caveats where they've got sleep apnea and you know they've got different types of sleep and they probably do need some sort of medication or something. But it's about resting after stress, because men are really bad for it as well. They don't go into the stress cycle so that on the fourth bit, where stress comes out and then another trigger happens, they haven't actually relieved themselves for the first stress cycle. So they end up just going like, oh, and they're angry again. And social media, to go back to it. If you're at night and you're scrolling and you see a post that you don't agree with or a comment, that something, it just annoys you, you're back into that stress cycle again.
Speaker 1:So that's right. A few years ago, I actually created a um, a guide for my clients, called stop this, stop the nighttime scroll, because I think that it's it's both genders right, like women are doing it too. Yeah, what I used to hear and I still hear it from clients is you know, the day's been so busy and I've been pulled in a million directions and at the end of the day or at the end of the night, the kids are finally in bed, the house is quiet, the chores are done. This is, finally, the first time in 16, 17, 18 hours I've had to myself. So what did they do? They pulled up their phone. They started scrolling. Next thing, you know, it's like an hour and a half later. Now you're only going to get four hours of sleep tonight and you can't fall asleep because you saw this thing that triggered you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I 100% agree it's like this whole cycle right.
Speaker 2:I like what you said, ben, as well, about um, that you haven't had time for yourself, because I I can't remember, um, I was reading a book and it was about marketing, which is weird. It wasn't actually about mental health or stress, but it was about marketing, uh, and I can't remember what the analogy was, but I do remember what statement was, and it was like you spent so much time, you haven't spent much time in yourself, and then you go on social media. Well, that's just another way of spending your time with other people, because you're listening to what they've got to say, you've got to hear what they've got to say, you know, sort of thing. So, yeah, you're 100% right. You know, if you haven't spent much time with yourself and you do need that me time actually spend it with you. It's not with 400 other people on social media.
Speaker 1:so, yeah, so I like what you said at the end of the night, like do something for yourself, absolutely okay. So one more question I want to. I have like 20 more questions I want to ask you about that's fine coming upon the end of our time, so I want to be intentional. What is something that every workplace should be doing if they genuinely want to support the health and well-being of their employees?
Speaker 2:I love that question and I love answering the question. I think the problem with workplaces is they're not being preventative, they're being reactive. So a lot of workplaces I've come across and I've actually gone and done group sessions for they've said that they're really good at understanding mental health and they're really good at supporting people with mental health. What workplaces are not great at and they're not, I would say, not enough training around is that they're not good at mitigating against it. So an example of this and I mentioned it to a company, I think they may have actually took me up on the option. I'm not sure if they actually aligned it straight away, but it was like a project they were going to put together and I was like we have mental health nurses in the UK.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if they're the same in America, but we have mental health first aiders. Should I call them? Should I not Nurses? Not nurses, sorry? So they're like in there. So once someone's feeling really down, they can go in and talk and that's great. But why are we not doing something before they get to that point? So for me in workplaces and this is what I've said that I do is like have stress strategies in place, have things and I think they started bringing in like welfare days. I think we started bringing in more sort of company events where they could just go and sit and chill as a team and it wasn't work and it was just chatting about like the company, but in in a less stressful life yeah, and team building.
Speaker 2:So I think that's so huge because the problem within workplace, like I said, they're not mitigating against stress and, again, I think, both genders. I just think that they haven't got enough support for for them in that place. Like you know, I think one of the bad examples I saw this is a woman come off maternity leave before she's obviously very, you know, stressed within. You know she's just had a newborn child, she's had six months. She's come back and I just felt like chucking her into the workplace and hey, how are you use an interview and then off you pot, and you know it's like well, maybe they should like have some sort of grounding, sort of methodology first, like maybe maybe come in for like three days, then next week, you know that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Reintegration, not like throwing them back into the fire.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so it's like my long-term secret goal. I guess that I don't probably talk about enough, but it would be awesome if the UK and the US as well but for where I live, wales starting is just have stress strategies in work where they can actually understand what causes stress. How can they better prevent stress? How do people lead as a leader and mitigate against it? Because I just don't think we do it. We just wait for it to happen and then go oh, it's all right, we'll help you now you're hurt oh my gosh, I'm in such alignment with everything you just said, craig.
Speaker 1:That is that is I mean. What you just described is my absolute mission in life, because I agree there are many, many companies, organizations and education where my background is, that have these robust benefits wellness packages, where it's like the perks, it's like here's your free therapy, here's your, you know, free doctor's visits, or your gym membership for free, or your free mindfulness app, or I can go on and on, but it's like all of these extra things for a person to do on their own time because they are completely stressed out and burnt out because of the toxic environment in which they work. And the answer is not to give the burnt out person more things to do, it's to reverse engineer and find out well what is causing the stress with my people in the first place, and let's address that 100% and they like to say you know a boxer is going to get punched, we put some mouth guard in.
Speaker 2:You know you're going to have the punches. Work can be stressful. You're going to have deadlines, you're going to have targets, you're going to have deadlines, you're going to have targets. You're going to have a lot of stress in work. And, let's face it, work needs to understand that most people have got lives outside of that work and they may not have a family, but most do. Most have a family and a lot going on. But even the people that don't have family, they might have something going on in their life that caused a lot of stress. So let's like, you know, I just I really believe in that strongly. You know like, let's treat them like family, not a colleague, and then get them help before they need it. So prevent it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, I 100% agree. You know what is giving you, what is energizing you these days, what's giving you hope right now in your work or in the larger conversation around men's mental health and burnout prevention. What is something that you're really excited about in your work right now?
Speaker 2:For me. I'm just excited about the results I'm seeing from the dad rebuilder that I've created, because I didn't create it to like we just talked about right, it's like let's not get to the point of me taking my own life etc. Let's get you stopped before. So I'm really excited to take a different approach to men's mental health and I am a little bit sometimes what you'd call a controversial element within the men's mental health and I am a little bit sometimes what you'd call a controversial element within the men's mental health game, because I'm not one that says open up about everything, talk about everything. I'm actually like do you need to talk about it? Is it really like let's concentrate on the, the focus on the most important things? So I'm really looking forward to because I've done like case studies and stuff and they've been really like, they've done really well, because most of the dads that come back to me they've just it's not about them changing. I just think it was like unlocking the inner masculinity that they did have and using masculinity for good instead of just saying, oh, it's toxic, don't be that way or you're not masculine enough, you know. Just unlock your potential.
Speaker 2:And I think the most exciting thing I've seen is watching masculinity in itself, with men like having compassion, love, you know, care, thought, strength, resilience, mind like the ability to actually have mindset shifts as well. That being unlocked and used for good is such a powerful health on this world and it's nice to see people. I'm really excited to see more men use it and, uh, I know a few of my. I think two of my clients over the last three months have gone into coaching themselves, so it must've worked enough because they've gone. I'm going to do what you do and do you mind if I do dads of like, do whatever you want, because it'll help more dads out there. So absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful, see. I said that you are an inspiration to your clients. Clearly, it's yes, yes, I know just, and, and what I'm hearing you say, and all that, too, is really important. It it's not only that change is possible, but change is happening.
Speaker 2:Positive, yeah, 100, yeah, yeah, and it's really nice because I think a lot of the things as well. I normally I mean we talk about marketing, how we market ourselves. I mean we all know that. But something I am a lot of the things as well. I normally I mean we talk about marketing, how we market ourselves. I mean we all know that. But something I am very proud of it it's within my marketing, but I stick to it throughout is like it's not just about you when you come to see me, it's about those lovely little kids you have and the wife that stands next to you through everything. So and I think that's another thing I hear as well it gets me excited.
Speaker 2:I hear people say like I I think it's on my testimony that said I've got on my whatsapp math. One of the guys, matthew because he let me share my stuff and he was like me and my wife are that we're more just vibrant. Our passions got into each other. Their sex life was better and I was like that was even our goal at the beginning of the program, but just because he became what she expected him to become, I think that's, that's what worked and that was. As you can see, I'm really happy when I talk about it and I just think about your impact, craig.
Speaker 1:You're not just impacting an individual client sitting in front of you, you are impacting the lives of those that are like the wife and the kids and whomever else is in their, their world, so doing some really cool stuff. How can people connect with you? How can people learn more about your work? Can you talk to us about your book? All of those things yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:So yeah, my name is craig madden. You can find me on facebook and instagram and linkedin and all the normal social media platforms. Yeah, I have a book which is how I went from hospital beds and stress to lower stress, and that was really started off as a leadership book, funnily enough, but then I felt, as I was writing it, that it was. I wanted it to be more about me and helping dad, so it transitioned halfway through and then, within the first few months, I got that message to basically say it's like at the top of the self-help book, self-help books on Amazon, so award like one. And then it got in the hot sellers list. A few months later, I think it was like November 2024 as well, so that was really cool. I'm writing another book at the moment, which is how to be a dad, not a man with a kid.
Speaker 1:I love that title. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more just about you know, because I think I'd be, I'd probably cause some upset in the in the industry. But I have said, like, for me, a dad is someone that stays there, wants to be there, wants to support the wife, wants to show her love so the kids can see that and then have a relationship with kids. A man with a kid is somebody that decides to leave. Anybody, any man, can help produce a kid and reproduce, but are they being a dad? So yeah, I'm looking forward to see how that does. But, like honestly I anyone could reach out to me. Um, man or woman, I've helped, you know, I've sat with women as well, mothers, and it's been really special.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we'll make sure that we link all of your socials and website and your book and all of that and the show notes so that people can easily access that and appreciate it. Yeah, craig, just you know. Thank you again for sharing your story and your insights. I think that the work you're doing to reshape leadership and reframe men's mental health is long past due and clearly it's working and I can't wait to see you know what's next for you and and perhaps there's an opportunity to collaborate in the future on on workplace well 100 yeah, absolutely 100.
Speaker 2:Look forward to it now. Thank you very much for having me. And yes, I guess my final message is just please reach out, because if you don't, unfortunately you may never change it. Sometimes just that whisper in your ear or that handout is the handout to you could just change everything. So you know, reach out to somebody, even if it's a friend.
Speaker 1:That's right, okay, everybody. That's it for today's episode and we'll see you next time here on TOT. Thanks so much for listening to TOT. If you found today's episode valuable, please consider sharing it with a colleague or leaving a review, and remember to hit follow so you never miss an episode. For additional resources to support educator wellbeing and organizational change, visit my website at amyshanbergcom. Backslash talk and if you'd like to keep today's conversation going, let's connect on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Finally, don't forget to check the show notes for links to today's guests and everything they're up to. See you next time.